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I would agree completely with you, but I think you may have overlooked one point. When discovering new things, don't you first have to assume something nonfactual and then see what the consequences are? In science this happens all the time. Scientists will assume something that has no evidence for ...

Definitely. If you allow for spirituality, then you must necessarily accept some level of complication above and beyond what is typically explained by science. I guess that isn't strictly required. Sometimes concepts get simpler when you go deeper, but often not. Yes, once you allow an element to b...

Thanks everyone for contributing to this thread. I learned a lot, especially from the last few pages. I thought I would summarize my thoughts from the last few pages, not necessarily to close out the thread, although I think we got sufficient juice out of the squeeze that if we ended here it would h...

...I've also thought lots about the whole concept of the veil and what exactly happened at birth. I like to think that it has more similarity to something like cochlear implants. Those are the devices they implant into people's brains to restore hearing to the deaf. It takes some time for their bra...

They are definitely two different concepts, but I think that they have some overlap. I thought that if someone doesn't believe in spirituality at all the closest purely secular concept might be mental health. I can't think of another concept that has more connection with spirituality. I've heard fr...

I can see your concern. The general idea of religion can go too far when it comes to sin. This can happen on either end of the spectrum. We can hammer the idea that you a sinner and must repent until all we have is a bunch of guilt-ridden people with terrible mental health. On the other hand we can...

Yeah, that may be a valid reason to discuss these things in public, but we don't often get a fair discussion. I find that the bad things get discussed and the good things tend to be left out. For example, in the article, both individuals talked about how they had great church leaders for much of th...

Yeah, that may be a valid reason to discuss these things in public, but we don't often get a fair discussion. I find that the bad things get discussed and the good things tend to be left out. For example, in the article, both individuals talked about how they had great church leaders for much of th...

All I can say is, Wow! I love where this thread is going. Thanks to PhysicsGuy, Gadianton, Malkie, Marcus, Cam, and others. These types of discussions are why I'm here on this board. I feel like we religious people too readily dismiss opinions like the ones you guys have brought up. When we do that,...

Thanks, Gadianton. I feel like I understand much better, enough to say I think I agree with you on this concept. My own faith went from difficult and uncomfortable to something much more firm. I guess I feel like that deserves some of my loyalty in times when I don't see clearly. Maybe we just disa...