Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

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Some Schmo
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:17 pm
Because in all actuality, they don't give a damn about their kid. Because they don't know how to give a damn about their kid.
This deserved to be quoted.

Buying your kid a gun is beyond what we normally think of as irresponsible. It's malresponsible (I decided to coin a new word). The feeling I get from this case is that the parents didn't care about their kid nearly as much as their gun fetish. Naturally, they would try to indoctrinate their kid in their own gun-nuttery.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

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honorentheos
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:30 pm
1. Improve access to mental health care.

2. Something-something about liability insurance for gun owners, training requirements for licensing, tighten up state and local laws, and charge irresponsible adults as appropriate.
Both of the above ought to be universally upheld by both gun rights advocates and those not favorable to personal firearm ownership.

If every gun required a specific policy where an actuary was assigning risk factors to the ownership that affected the direct, observable out-of-pocket costs, we'd likely see more gun safe use and other risk-reducing behavior become the norm. If gun sales were more closely regulated by states with honest interests in the protection of citizens and not political statements, fewer high-risk individuals would get guns.

There's a reason an underaged teen whose parents let them drink alcohol does so in ways that still protect the parents from liability. Even bad parents are usually smart enough to have limits that protect others even if they don't realize that kid is still statistically more likely to drive under the influence than a kid whose parents are strict about observing age limits on alcohol use.

Treating firearms like a tool that has risks that come with poor decision making and realizing that there are reasons teens are considered high-risk with most other risky tool use, would be a step in reducing school shootings.

I've also wondered what would happen if school shooters who are spending the prime years behind bars were taken to schools to talk about what life in prison looks like compared to whatever set them off on a shooting spree? I wonder if kids who are thinking about doing something like this might be less inclined to follow through if they read the chapters in those lives that don't make the news after the event has faded?

Lastly, I think there is another issue that is personal but I think about often when I hear about someone who is school-aged shooting others. I have a nephew who committed suicide at age 15 with a firearm. He was depressed, struggling, and most of the adults in his life were doing their best to help. But one Saturday morning he took the firearm that he had easy access to and took his own life. The decision wasn't spurious but having access to act at a moment when he wasn't in the best state of mind to make even ok decisions has been devastating to my sister and her husband'/his stepdad. A lot of what contributed to his depression were things that get cited by people discussing the motives of kids who shoot up schools instead of themselves. He had not made the football team that year for reasons when he had loved it his freshman year, for example. He was going through some things including having a bad relationship with his biological dad that affected a ton of other things (as an minor explanation, his dad overdosed on opioids within a few months of this event which is...yeah. Some people just draw a rougher row to hoe than most of us...)

My nephew was a good-hearted kid. I don't think it would have crossed his mind to shoot other people. He should still be alive finding out life does get better, that people cared. He'd be in college now, or perhaps pursuing a trade like his stepdad. Or who knows what. But it would almost certainly be better than what he felt was worth ending it at the age of 15.
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Atlanticmike
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

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Morley wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:41 pm
Atlanticmike wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:17 am

I have a lot of ideas, one being parents and grandparents who want to volunteer inside schools should be allowed to. Personally, I would arm them, but let's not go there. I say allow them to roam the halls, sit in classrooms, mentor the youth especially the ones who don't fit in or being bullied. Maybe even deputize them so if any student abuses or touches them, they'll be prosecuted like they would be if the student assaulted a police officer. Our schools here in America are a mess. I guarantee a large portion of grandparents and parents would volunteer at least once every two weeks or so.
Atlanticmike wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:36 am

Here's another idea. It drives me crazy when I drive down the road and pass a police precinct building with 20 to 30 cops operating out of each precinct. I say shut the precincts down and put a double wide on the front lawn of every highschool in America and let that be the police precinct. The police would be on school grounds 24/7 with multiple officers, guns, cars and many other deterrent. If my kids have to walk outside to attend class in a trailer because of over crowding, well, the police can have there precinct smack dab in front of the school.
If I'm reading this right, your solution is basically to merge schools with retirement communities and police precincts.

Volunteers are already allowed in schools (after expensive and lengthy background checks). It turns out that not many older folks want to spend day-in and day-out wandering the halls and attending classes with other people's grandchildren. Grandparents are not usually trained mental health professionals.

Police precincts have 20 to 30 cops operating out of each precinct for reasons of organization and communication. Spreading them thinner would be like you assigning one roofer to every house. There are many more hot spots in cities than just schools. We've tried police presence in schools (I think there was an officer at Oxford High at the time of the shooting). I can't see this as a viable solution.

Mike, what do you think of some of the other ideas presented here? For example, what did you think of what Jersey and Gad had to say?
https://youtu.be/PiQ5Oa9sqpM
Here's a great video that shows the positive influence the elderly have on our children when interacting with them inside a school setting. the elderly could be put in every classroom even if it's just to look for bullies and to help out teachers. Maybe the people that you hang around wouldn't volunteer, but if I was allowed to, I would park my butt in my kids school at least 4to 5 hours a week to make a difference. Also, we need to make anyone under 18 attending a public school wear a uniform, no exceptions.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

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He was depressed, struggling, and most of the adults in his life were doing their best to help.
I have a similar situation in my family, though the person was older. Everybody goes through mentally trying events. Not everyone is mentally ill. I highly doubt that Sauer kid was mentally ill.

In all the compliance training I've had to do for work over the years, one of the big takeaways is that factors such as pressure and opportunity are more important than things like past criminal convictions when considering the risk of fraud.

Teens are especially dicey because of impulsiveness and they haven't really learned to understand consequences; especially in today's world. Normal, everyday people can become thieves, killers, or suicide victims when easy opportunities like guns are in reach.

In reality, there's too much process control involved in making the world safe from guns, and so even though I've suggested things like restrictions on semi-autos and magazine depth, the best would be a gun roundup and outright ban on most gun models and heavy restrictions on all other guns.

I'd support an army of black vans to do the roundup, and take take the resistant to FEMA camps. I'd also support paying up to 10 cents on the dollar to the owners for every gun seized.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Morley »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:09 pm
Morley wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:41 pm




If I'm reading this right, your solution is basically to merge schools with retirement communities and police precincts.

Volunteers are already allowed in schools (after expensive and lengthy background checks). It turns out that not many older folks want to spend day-in and day-out wandering the halls and attending classes with other people's grandchildren. Grandparents are not usually trained mental health professionals.

Police precincts have 20 to 30 cops operating out of each precinct for reasons of organization and communication. Spreading them thinner would be like you assigning one roofer to every house. There are many more hot spots in cities than just schools. We've tried police presence in schools (I think there was an officer at Oxford High at the time of the shooting). I can't see this as a viable solution.

Mike, what do you think of some of the other ideas presented here? For example, what did you think of what Jersey and Gad had to say?
https://youtu.be/PiQ5Oa9sqpM
Here's a great video that shows the positive influence the elderly have on our children when interacting with them inside a school setting. the elderly could be put in every classroom even if it's just to look for bullies and to help out teachers. Maybe the people that you hang around wouldn't volunteer, but if I was allowed to, I would park my butt in my kids school at least 4to 5 hours a week to make a difference. Also, we need to make anyone under 18 attending a public school wear a uniform, no exceptions.
You are allowed to.. If this were true, you'd already be doing it. But you're not.

I was a school administrator. We tried to get volunteers. After the first couple of weeks they just didn't show up.

As far as helping with bullies, no parent wants an unknown, untrained volunteer counseling or disciplining their child.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

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I was a school administrator. We tried to get volunteers. After the first couple of weeks they just didn't show up.

As far as helping with bullies, no parent wants an unknown, untrained volunteer counseling or disciplining their child.
Great points. From what a teacher friend of mine tells me, no parent these days wants even a teacher or counselor or anyone else disciplining their child, it's the other kids fault or the school's fault and they're going to the district if they don't get their way.

Not to mention, the conflict between kids at school is already bad enough, I can only imagine a school full of Alpha male grandparents inserting themselves into conflicts.

Would make for a great reality TV series though, I'll give it that.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

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Morley wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:13 pm
Atlanticmike wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:09 pm


https://youtu.be/PiQ5Oa9sqpM
Here's a great video that shows the positive influence the elderly have on our children when interacting with them inside a school setting. the elderly could be put in every classroom even if it's just to look for bullies and to help out teachers. Maybe the people that you hang around wouldn't volunteer, but if I was allowed to, I would park my butt in my kids school at least 4to 5 hours a week to make a difference. Also, we need to make anyone under 18 attending a public school wear a uniform, no exceptions.
You are allowed to.. If this were true, you'd already be doing it. But you're not.

I was a school administrator. We tried to get volunteers. After the first couple of weeks they just didn't show up.

As far as helping with bullies, no parent wants an unknown, untrained volunteer counseling or disciplining their child.
Wrong. I wouldn't mind if someone told my kid they were bullying to stop picking on someone if that's what was happening. and if I could I would spend time at my kids school I would. Positivity goes a long way.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Morley »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:43 pm
Morley wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:13 pm

You are allowed to.. If this were true, you'd already be doing it. But you're not.

I was a school administrator. We tried to get volunteers. After the first couple of weeks they just didn't show up.

As far as helping with bullies, no parent wants an unknown, untrained volunteer counseling or disciplining their child.
Wrong. I wouldn't mind if someone told my kid they were bullying to stop picking on someone if that's what was happening.
You might not, but other parents do. Volunteers can be a huge legal liability for school districts.
Atlanticmike wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:43 pm
and if I could I would spend time at my kids school I would. Positivity goes a long way.
You keep saying this. If it were true, you'd be doing it.
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Morley
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Morley »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:29 pm

Not to mention, the conflict between kids at school is already bad enough, I can only imagine a school full of Alpha male grandparents inserting themselves into conflicts.

Would make for a great reality TV series though, I'll give it that.
No kidding.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Morley wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:13 pm
You are allowed to.. If this were true, you'd already be doing it. But you're not.

I was a school administrator. We tried to get volunteers. After the first couple of weeks they just didn't show up.

As far as helping with bullies, no parent wants an unknown, untrained volunteer counseling or disciplining their child.
Morley, me too. Not a large public school admin but a large early childhood program administrator and served as teacher of children and teacher/mentor of adults, all total, 30 years. I did volunteer assist in elementary classrooms during that time as well. He clearly has no knowledge of how schools are run, the mountain of rules/regulations/statutes under which schools operate or why.

I'm going to be busy for the next few hours or so, but later in the day, I will try to post my ideas about transforming the public school system in a separate thread and my reasoning for my proposals. If you see it, I would like you to help expand on my ideas and also challenge them. Poke holes in them where you see an opportunity to do so. I've posted them numerous times on this board. I think I can refine them a bit better this go round and spoiler alert: I'm going to steal one of AM's ideas from this thread and incorporate it into my proposal. ;-) I may toggle certain posters on/off ignore, but I'm not one to ignore what I think is a good idea.
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