Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

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Morley
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Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Morley »

Does our freedom to own arm ourselves mean our kids must run the risk of being gunned down in the classroom? Are child casualties just one of the prices of freedom? If not, what are the solutions?

I'm asking this as a gun owner. I'm especially interested the opinions of our board's 2nd Amendment enthusiasts.
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Xenophon
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Xenophon »

I think as long as the status quo is maintained then yes, it is likely not going to stop. It appears to just be a number game at this point, with basically 1 firearm per person and a pretty terrible mental health network there are just fairly high odds that someone who REALLY shouldn't have one will have access to one.

Full disclosure, I'm a gun owner myself. I really enjoy skeet shooting and dove/duck hunting and those are activities that are quite difficult without the right tools. That said I absolutely despise "gun culture" (generally I dislike any time a hobby becomes your personality) and believe there are lots of fairly simple safeguards that can be put in place in order to minimize the potential negative impacts. Couple a few sensible laws with a bolstering of the social safety net and I don't see any reason we couldn't bring our gun violence rates more in line with other developed nations. Unfortunately the politization of the topic makes it nearly impossible to make any headway on this, and yes I understand that is by design.
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ceeboo
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by ceeboo »

Morely - Thanks for the opening post and thanks for placing it in this particular forum - I think your choice to place it in this forum might provide for an intereting and severely needed discussion on this topic. Might.

Hey X-Man!
Xenophon wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:33 pm
That said I absolutely despise "gun culture" (generally I dislike any time a hobby becomes your personality) and believe there are lots of fairly simple safeguards that can be put in place in order to minimize the potential negative impacts.
If you're willing to elaborate a bit, I would be very interested to hear your opinions/ideas/proposals on what these fairly simple safeguards might look like. I am asking for your opionions/ideas/proposals because I have found them to be very thoughtful and reasonable concerning other topics in the past.

Full disclosure back at ya: I am not a gun owner - Never have been.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Jersey Girl »

1. Improve access to mental health care.

2. Something-something about liability insurance for gun owners, training requirements for licensing, tighten up state and local laws, and charge irresponsible adults as appropriate.

3. Metal detectors in ALL schools. (I'd go as far to say all public buildings and public transportation.)

4. Be your brother's keeper, teach your children to do the same, and create school culture that promotes doing so. If nothing else, the cultural shift could flow from classroom to home.

5. Strict adherence to school policies, including referrals, re: students who exhibit disturbing behavior.

6. Do we want to give schools access to student's social media accounts? I think so. It seems to me that some employers have access so why not minor children?

Off the top of my head. I'm not sure what else. Not sure I have anything else to contribute.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Res Ipsa »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:30 pm
1. Improve access to mental health care.

2. Something-something about liability insurance for gun owners, training requirements for licensing, tighten up state and local laws, and charge irresponsible adults as appropriate.

3. Metal detectors in ALL schools. (I'd go as far to say all public buildings and public transportation.)

4. Be your brother's keeper, teach your children to do the same, and create school culture that promotes doing so. If nothing else, the cultural shift could flow from classroom to home.

5. Strict adherence to school policies, including referrals, re: students who exhibit disturbing behavior.

6. Do we want to give schools access to student's social media accounts? I think so. It seems to me that some employers have access so why not minor children?

Off the top of my head. I'm not sure what else. Not sure I have anything else to contribute.
If you have a homeowners or renters insurance policy, you have insurance for non intentional gun injuries and deaths. Part of the issue is how to insure folks who aren’t insured under either of those kinds of policies. Another is setting minimum limits. And, finally there is a policy question about the appropriate risk pool.

For example, the parents of the latest school shooter may be covered for civil damages arising out of the school shooting, depending on how their policy is written. Who pays for that risk? Every homeowner or renter in Michigan? But why should everyone be required to share that cost? Why not just those who create the risk of gun injuries and deaths — gun owners. That could be accomplished by requiring purchase of a special gun liability policy that includes a minimum amount of limits. That policy could also be required to pay before any other insurance does. That shifts the risk from most everyone to the people who cause the additional risk.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Gadianton »

shooting for sport or hunting is accomplished with break action / bolt action / pump action rifles. Hunting most game comes with restrictions that disallow the kinds of guns that most gun nuts are into.

The biggest factor in reducing the severity of mass shootings is getting rid of and/or heavily restricting semi-autos with high-capacity magazines. AR-15s, for instance, should simply be illegal across the board. Handguns should be restricted to 6 bullets and require background checks and basically the equivalent of a course similar to hunters safety or concealed carry. Hell, proof of a gun safe might be a good idea.

So that's where it starts. Anything short of severely restricting semi-autos with high capacity magazines won't make a dent in the problem.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Atlanticmike »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:09 am
shooting for sport or hunting is accomplished with break action / bolt action / pump action rifles. Hunting most game comes with restrictions that disallow the kinds of guns that most gun nuts are into.

The biggest factor in reducing the severity of mass shootings is getting rid of and/or heavily restricting semi-autos with high-capacity magazines. AR-15s, for instance, should simply be illegal across the board. Handguns should be restricted to 6 bullets and require background checks and basically the equivalent of a course similar to hunters safety or concealed carry. Hell, proof of a gun safe might be a good idea.

So that's where it starts. Anything short of severely restricting semi-autos with high capacity magazines won't make a dent in the problem.
I hunt with a variety of shotguns and my favorite is a 24" barrel Saiga12 12 gauge. It's a semi automatic and shoots incredibly fast follow up shots. Also, I hunt with a 10mm semi automatic handgun. Every once in a while I'll go to the mountains to hunt and use an AR10, also semi automatic. I've shot squirrel with a semi automatic 22 and semi auto 410. All great guns for hunting and self defense.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Kukulkan »

I think naturally when a society is given more freedom, some people within that society will use that freedom to do terrible and reprehensible things. I think the issue at hand is if all guns in the USA were magically gone, would mass violence in schools stop? Would we see a shift towards a new methodology like China for example, which deals with knife attacks in their school systems. I don't necessarily believe that no guns=no more mass violence. I also think that the USA is hard to compare to other countries considering the 2nd amendment has created a gun culture not really seen anywhere else.

I think as others have touched on, the USA is dealing with an unaddressed mental health crisis. From what I have seen of the shooter in the recent Michigan shooting, the kid was quite troubled and most likely would have benefitted from psychotherapy.

Knowing that a ban on semi-automatic rifles and handguns is most likely never going to happen, I think the best route to take is to try to address the underlying issues causing these mass shootings.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Gadianton »

China for example, which deals with knife attacks in their school systems
right, adults attacking children.

Sauer kid would have been lucky to kill one person before getting beat down.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Kukulkan »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:57 am
China for example, which deals with knife attacks in their school systems
right, adults attacking children.

Sauer kid would have been lucky to kill one person before getting beat down.
I think the Sandy Hook shooter could have achieved similar outcomes even with a knife. Obviously with no guns the amount of deaths from mass violence would decrease. I guess what I am trying to say is that it wouldn't disappear, so the better solution is the one that helps for a long term remedy (addressing mental health, toxic gun culture, etc.) rather than a short term reactionary one (ban all or most of the guns owned in the USA currently).
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
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