Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

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Morley
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Morley »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:37 pm
I should add that the legal situation the school was facing when the parents refused to take the kid out of school was likely more complicated than most news articles reflect. Because it was a public school, the teachers and administrators were state actors. And, because Justice Thomas hasn't managed to persuade the rest of the Court that students have no constitutional rights, they have a subset of federal constitutional rights and may also have rights under federal education laws, state constitutions, and state education laws.

Ms. Ipsa has told me that she cannot simply remove a disruptive student from the classroom because the student has a right to be educated. Education law has gotten much more complicated than it was back when I took a course in it in the '80s. I don't know where that rule at her school comes from, but I suspect it's from a policy that attempts to implement students' rights that are provided in some statute or constitutional provision.

What I think this means is that having the school essentially detain the kid rather than send him to class may have been a violation of the kid's rights. Sending him away from the school unsupervised sounds like a bad choice, as the note should have raised concerns about suicide. There may have been no good choices that the school could have made.
Given what's come out so far, that's pretty much been my conclusion, too. It looked to me like the administration didn't want the kid in the school but had no choice once the parents declined to take him home. If the reports are true that the kid had no history of misbehavior, the admin had little choice. Due process has a huge role in school policy.

That doesn't mean the district won't get sued. My bet is that they'll settle for a significant sum, following what will probably be a couple of years of litigation.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Res Ipsa »

Morley wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:42 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:37 pm
I should add that the legal situation the school was facing when the parents refused to take the kid out of school was likely more complicated than most news articles reflect. Because it was a public school, the teachers and administrators were state actors. And, because Justice Thomas hasn't managed to persuade the rest of the Court that students have no constitutional rights, they have a subset of federal constitutional rights and may also have rights under federal education laws, state constitutions, and state education laws.

Ms. Ipsa has told me that she cannot simply remove a disruptive student from the classroom because the student has a right to be educated. Education law has gotten much more complicated than it was back when I took a course in it in the '80s. I don't know where that rule at her school comes from, but I suspect it's from a policy that attempts to implement students' rights that are provided in some statute or constitutional provision.

What I think this means is that having the school essentially detain the kid rather than send him to class may have been a violation of the kid's rights. Sending him away from the school unsupervised sounds like a bad choice, as the note should have raised concerns about suicide. There may have been no good choices that the school could have made.
Given what's come out so far, that's pretty much been my conclusion, too. It looked to me like the administration didn't want the kid in the school but had no choice once the parents declined to take him home. If the reports are true that the kid had no history of misbehavior, the admin had little choice. Due process has a huge role in school policy.

That doesn't mean the district won't get sued. My bet is that they'll settle for a significant sum, following what will probably be a couple of years of litigation.
Yep, lawsuits against the school and the parents are certain to follow.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Gadianton »

Res wrote:Yep, lawsuits against the school and the parents are certain to follow.
first 100 million dollar lawsuit has been filed.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

This dude was going to shoot up his college today:

https://breaking911.com/by-the-grace-of ... olice-say/
… Investigators quickly discovered social media messages Hagins had written where he laid out his plans to bring a folding gun to the campus tucked inside a backpack along with hundreds of rounds of ammunition.



Asked about the plot being thwarted on the final day before winter break, Young said, “This was all a part of the plan because today the campus will be packed because everybody has to be there to take their final exam.”
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Kukulkan »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:00 pm
bUT wE hAve t’SoLve MentAl iLLnEsS fiRsT!!!
While I do agree that 'solving' mental illness isn't the only way to stop these mass shootings, I do think there is merit to the idea that untreated mental illness conditions is what is causing these individuals to want to go out and commit mass murder. Our healthcare system is pretty messed up and leaves a lot of people behind.

Here is a good peer reviewed study on the matter. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34102649/
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Marcus »

We could have had a tragedy unfold today,” stated DBPD Police Chief Jakari Young. “Instead, these students reported it to the school and that allowed us to get to work right away and bring Hagins into custody before he could carry out his plans. We thank them all for seeing something and saying something.”

“By the grace of God, those two students came forward and thwarted that plan,” Young said.
It seems “investigators quickly discovered social media messages” only after the peers of the person posting these messages reported them. This is just anecdotal, but in my recall, it seems as if there have been multiple cases where the peers of the shooter suspected something, but either didn’t report it or weren’t taken seriously. There were kids who stayed home from school the day Ethan Crumbley acted, so it seems they suspected something but not enough to be taken seriously, or for someone to think they should report it.

Obviously there might be multiple false alarms, but at this point, the post 9/11 warning “if you see something, say something” advice should be given to kids in social media as well. Kids know who is playing with guns.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Xenophon »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:34 pm
It seems “investigators quickly discovered social media messages” only after the peers of the person posting these messages reported them. This is just anecdotal, but in my recall, it seems as if there have been multiple cases where the peers of the shooter suspected something, but either didn’t report it or weren’t taken seriously. There were kids who stayed home from school the day Ethan Crumbley acted, so it seems they suspected something but not enough to be taken seriously, or for someone to think they should report it.

Obviously there might be multiple false alarms, but at this point, the post 9/11 warning “if you see something, say something” advice should be given to kids in social media as well. Kids know who is playing with guns.
I'll have to go back through and see if I can find the research but I'm fairly certain when it comes to school mass shootings in something like 70+% of them a peer knew of or reported serious warning signs if not the actual plan itself.

ETA: Apologies but my memory was a bit off:
Most attackers (n = 27, 77%) threatened their targets or shared their intentions to carry out an attack.

Every attacker included in this analysis (n = 35, 100%) exhibited concerning behaviors prior to their attack. In all
but two of these cases (n = 33, 94%), concerning behaviors were displayed at school. Three-quarters of the attackers
(n = 27, 77%) displayed concerning behaviors at home or in the community, and about three-quarters displayed them
online (n = 26, 74%).
Source (obvious PDF Warning)- https://www.secretservice.gov/sites/def ... chools.pdf
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:34 pm
We could have had a tragedy unfold today,” stated DBPD Police Chief Jakari Young. “Instead, these students reported it to the school and that allowed us to get to work right away and bring Hagins into custody before he could carry out his plans. We thank them all for seeing something and saying something.”

“By the grace of God, those two students came forward and thwarted that plan,” Young said.
It seems “investigators quickly discovered social media messages” only after the peers of the person posting these messages reported them. This is just anecdotal, but in my recall, it seems as if there have been multiple cases where the peers of the shooter suspected something, but either didn’t report it or weren’t taken seriously. There were kids who stayed home from school the day Ethan Crumbley acted, so it seems they suspected something but not enough to be taken seriously, or for someone to think they should report it.

Obviously there might be multiple false alarms, but at this point, the post 9/11 warning “if you see something, say something” advice should be given to kids in social media as well. Kids know who is playing with guns.
Schools should develop a social media piece as an addition to the curriculum. No one can tell me that students don't have one ear to the ground on social media. I knew what the buzz was in my own high school. We were our own social media long before digital came along. I think they might need guidance about knowing what to look for and how to proceed. Certainly they all know how to take screen shots and send them to a police tip line? Do the schools have tip lines? If not, maybe that should happen so students can send them to multiple destinations.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Marcus »

Xenophon wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:38 pm
Marcus wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:34 pm
It seems “investigators quickly discovered social media messages” only after the peers of the person posting these messages reported them. This is just anecdotal, but in my recall, it seems as if there have been multiple cases where the peers of the shooter suspected something, but either didn’t report it or weren’t taken seriously. There were kids who stayed home from school the day Ethan Crumbley acted, so it seems they suspected something but not enough to be taken seriously, or for someone to think they should report it.

Obviously there might be multiple false alarms, but at this point, the post 9/11 warning “if you see something, say something” advice should be given to kids in social media as well. Kids know who is playing with guns.
I'll have to go back through and see if I can find the research but I'm fairly certain when it comes to school mass shootings in something like 70+% of them a peer knew of or reported serious warning signs if not the actual plan itself.
That sounds like what I’m seeing too. We need a better way to both encourage kids to report what they know and to encourage adults to take them seriously.

ETA I see Jersey Girl saying the same pretty much.
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Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Morley »

Bumping this thread for obvious reasons.


Opinion piece from MSNBC:

The Texas shooting shows the futility of arming teachers
If armed and trained professionals can't stop a gunman, how can a teacher be expected to?


Hardcore opponents of gun control in the U.S. often respond to school shootings by proposing to arm teachers or add armed security guards to schools. But the inability of police to stop the gunman at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, before he killed at least 19 children and two teachers Tuesday exposes the poor reasoning behind that proposal.

While all the details of the shooting are not yet clear, authorities’ accounts revealed that the gunman was confronted by multiple armed police officers — yet they were unable to stop him before he killed nearly two dozen people.


https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opi ... e-n1295693
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