Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related. No insults or personal attacks allowed. Rated G.
User avatar
Atlanticmike
God
Posts: 2721
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:16 pm

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Atlanticmike »

Morley wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:00 am
Atlanticmike wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:58 am


Here's an awsome video that explains the importance of the 2nd Amendment for Black Americans. https://youtu.be/LcrIClrGs1M

Me personally, I have no desire to deny minorities the right to bear arms and have the ability to protect their family and their neighborhood.
Mike, what's your answer to school shootings? I'm depressed as hell about this issue. Even among the kids who survived, many will have their lives destroyed.
Here's another idea. It drives me crazy when I drive down the road and pass a police precinct building with 20 to 30 cops operating out of each precinct. I say shut the precincts down and put a double wide on the front lawn of every highschool in America and let that be the police precinct. The police would be on school grounds 24/7 with multiple officers, guns, cars and many other deterrent. If my kids have to walk outside to attend class in a trailer because of over crowding, well, the police can have there precinct smack dab in front of the school.
Marcus
God
Posts: 5033
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Marcus »

Moksha wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:17 am
doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:30 am
from Scientifically Oriented Psychotherapy.
Like BYU used to provide with the help of electrodes?
No he is not referring to anything like that. Not everything needs an inappropriate joke reference.
doubtingthomas
God
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:04 pm

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:49 am
help from an accomplice to get into your car and drive it into a densely populated area.
I get your point, but mass shooters seem to be more common in the US.

And the Las Vegas shooting only lasted about 10 minutes because Paddock ceased fire to flee. Can you image the damage that Paddock would have done if he hadn't stop.

"The mass shooting occurred between 10:05 p.m. and 10:15 p.m. on October 1, 2017, which was the third and final night of the festival...At 11:20 p.m., police breached Room 32-135"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting

Lahouaiej on the other hand was on a suicide mission and tried to kill as many people as possible. How long did the Anglais in Nice attack last?
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 7062
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by canpakes »

Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:32 am
I think as others have touched on, the USA is dealing with an unaddressed mental health crisis.
Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:27 am
Tell me what you think is at the root of that issue?
Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:32 am
In a more recent context, the pandemic has obviously exacerbated a lot of underlying issues.

On a bigger scale though, I think poverty, lack of social mobility, increased political tension, substance abuse are a few that come to the top of my head.

Poverty, lack of social mobility, increased political tension, substance abuse.

No doubt these can contribute to a national mental health crisis, but one issue with couching firearms misuse in these terms is that this effectively diverts and shuts down the conversation, by characterizing the proposed solution as an unfathomably large reordering of our society through government intervention … to resolve substance abuse, poverty, lack of social mobility and increased political tension. Bonus points for actually exacerbating that last item, by suggesting that the others can be solved by sweeping government intervention in the first place, especially considering who’d be making that argument.

There’s literally a poison pill aspect baked into that conversational direction that’s guaranteed to create dysfunction and inaction, given that talk of those sorts of reforms drives many firearms enthusiasts to see that kind of ambition as destroying the country and requiring armed revolution and/or secession.

We may need to start smaller.
User avatar
Kukulkan
High Priest
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:36 pm
Location: Slipping deeper into the earth

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Kukulkan »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:53 am
Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:49 am
help from an accomplice to get into your car and drive it into a densely populated area.
No, but not many drivers kill more than 10 people, mass shooters seem to be more common in the US.

And the Las Vegas shooting only lasted about 10 minutes because Paddock ceased fire to escape. Can you image the damage that Paddock would have done if he hadn't stop.

"The mass shooting occurred between 10:05 p.m. and 10:15 p.m. on October 1, 2017, which was the third and final night of the festival...At 11:20 p.m., police breached Room 32-135"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting

Lahouaiej on the other hand was on a suicide mission and tried to kill as many people as possible. How long did the Anglais in Nice attack last?
Absolutely. What I am trying to say is that if we just go the route of 'ban all or most guns', people wishing to cause mass violence will turn to other methods that are just as equally as deadly. In China where guns are not available, the go to method seems to be knives, and in Europe there seems to be a growing trend of vehicle-ramming attacks. 'Ban guns' isn't a solution that accounts for the actual root cause of the problem. I don't think people will suddenly stop committing acts of mass violence simply because guns are no longer an available method.

The terror attack in France lasted 5 minutes. 5 minutes to kill 86 people with a truck.
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
User avatar
Kukulkan
High Priest
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:36 pm
Location: Slipping deeper into the earth

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Kukulkan »

canpakes wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:03 am
Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:32 am
I think as others have touched on, the USA is dealing with an unaddressed mental health crisis.
Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:27 am
Tell me what you think is at the root of that issue?
Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:32 am
In a more recent context, the pandemic has obviously exacerbated a lot of underlying issues.

On a bigger scale though, I think poverty, lack of social mobility, increased political tension, substance abuse are a few that come to the top of my head.

Poverty, lack of social mobility, increased political tension, substance abuse.

No doubt these can contribute to a national mental health crisis, but one issue with couching firearms misuse in these terms is that this effectively diverts and shuts down the conversation, by characterizing the proposed solution as an unfathomably large reordering of our society through government intervention … to resolve substance abuse, poverty, lack of social mobility and increased political tension. Bonus points for actually exacerbating the last item on that list by suggesting that the others can be solved by sweeping government intervention in the first place, especially considering who’d be making that argument.

There’s literally a poison pill aspect baked into that conversational direction that’s guaranteed to create dysfunction and inaction, given that talk of those sorts of reforms drives many firearms enthusiasts to see that sort of ambition as destroying the country and requiring armed revolution and/or secession.

We may need to start smaller.
I absolutely agree that toxic gun culture and extremist ideology is a major issue when it comes to addressing this issue and must be addressed in order to have any sort of impactful solutions.
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
Gunnar
God
Posts: 2338
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:32 pm
Location: California

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Gunnar »

Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:04 am
I think the Sandy Hook shooter could have achieved similar outcomes even with a knife. Obviously with no guns the amount of deaths from mass violence would decrease. I guess what I am trying to say is that it wouldn't disappear, so the better solution is the one that helps for a long term remedy (addressing mental health, toxic gun culture, etc.) rather than a short term reactionary one (ban all or most of the guns owned in the USA currently).
As you effectively admitted yourself, with no guns, the amount of deaths from mass violence would decrease (quite dramatically, IMHO). I don't believe that any solution that doesn't include effectively reducing the number of guns in society and the unrestricted eligibility to purchase and own them, without any kind of background check, is going to have very much effect on reducing gun violence, no matter what else we do. I think it is inarguable that the Sandy Hook shooter would probably have been subdued and stopped long before he had killed as many children as he did, if he was armed only with a knife.
Last edited by Gunnar on Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
User avatar
Kukulkan
High Priest
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:36 pm
Location: Slipping deeper into the earth

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Kukulkan »

Gunnar wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:07 am
Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:04 am
I think the Sandy Hook shooter could have achieved similar outcomes even with a knife. Obviously with no guns the amount of deaths from mass violence would decrease. I guess what I am trying to say is that it wouldn't disappear, so the better solution is the one that helps for a long term remedy (addressing mental health, toxic gun culture, etc.) rather than a short term reactionary one (ban all or most of the guns owned in the USA currently).
As you effectively admitted yourself, with no guns, the amount of deaths from mass violence would decrease (quite dramatically, IMHO). I don't believe that any solution that doesn't include effectively reducing the number of guns in society and the unrestricted eligibility to purchase and own them, without any kind of background check, is not going to have very much effect on reducing gun violence, no matter what else we do. I think it is inarguable that the Sandy Hook shooter would probably have been subdued and stopped long before he had killed as many children as he did, if he was armed only with a knife.
Can't find anything I disagree with here.
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
User avatar
Xenophon
Savior (resurrected state)
Posts: 998
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:29 pm

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Xenophon »

ceeboo wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:29 pm
Hey X-Man!
Xenophon wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:33 pm
That said I absolutely despise "gun culture" (generally I dislike any time a hobby becomes your personality) and believe there are lots of fairly simple safeguards that can be put in place in order to minimize the potential negative impacts.
If you're willing to elaborate a bit, I would be very interested to hear your opinions/ideas/proposals on what these fairly simple safeguards might look like. I am asking for your opionions/ideas/proposals because I have found them to be very thoughtful and reasonable concerning other topics in the past.

Full disclosure back at ya: I am not a gun owner - Never have been.
Hey, ceebs. There has been lots of good discussion here since my initial post but I'll try to lay out things as I see it.

Up until very recently the ban on the CDC studying the problem was my #1 priority for change. Thanks to some recent shifts they are now able to begin studying gun deaths but I'd love to see expansions to resources on this front. Unfortunately because they've effectively had their hands tied since '97 we are behind on solid research for public policy and anything to help accelerate the timeline would be helpful.

That said there is some data available to us. RAND corporation has one of the most comprehensive analysis of the studies available for what actually reduces deaths which can be found here. The whole initiative is worth a skim but long story short, we have solid evidence that Child-Access Prevention laws, Waiting Periods, Background Checks, and Restrictions for Domestic Abusers all lead to less deaths. The evidence also suggest we need to eliminate Stand Your Ground laws at the same time. My hope is that further research from the CDC can help us find even more policy decisions that reduce violence while also not bogging us down in the "ban all guns" ideas that I think are completely untenable at this time.

The best part about most of the suggestions above is that many of them already have a ton of public support. That is just one set of surveys there but a little googling will tell you there is strong public support for things like Universal Background checks, closing loopholes outside of dealer sales, Red Flag laws, and just "stricter laws" in general.

One suggestion not touched on above, mostly because it has historically had limited use in America, would be to begin a federal buy-back program. As I mentioned in my first post one of the issues is just the sheer number of guns out there. When you have such a large number of firearms in the hands of a public that I generally don't think exercises good gun safety practices bad things are going to happen. Buy-back programs have shown some promise on a small scale in helping to reduce gun violence (especially around accidental deaths) in communities and I've seen no research to suggest they aren't effective. They've also seen huge success on a national scale in other countries.

If you couple the above with also tackling mental health issues and expanding social safety nets I think you've got a pretty solid recipe for dramatically reducing gun deaths while also still preserving a huge chunk of our 2nd Amendment rights. It isn't an either/or scenario it is a both thing. The question you should be asking is if there is such overwhelming public support for some of these gun control initiatives and there is supporting evidence to their efficacy why isn't anything being done? Because we keep voting for people that are fine with the status quo and we won't hold their feet to the fire over it. If you aren't demanding your politicians be better then the never will be. Engagement with your representatives, especially those at the lower levels of state legislation, is absolutely key to enact real change.
He/Him

“If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation.”
― Xenophon
User avatar
Morley
God
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:17 pm
Location: detail from Alice Neel's 1980 self portrait

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Morley »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:17 am

I have a lot of ideas, one being parents and grandparents who want to volunteer inside schools should be allowed to. Personally, I would arm them, but let's not go there. I say allow them to roam the halls, sit in classrooms, mentor the youth especially the ones who don't fit in or being bullied. Maybe even deputize them so if any student abuses or touches them, they'll be prosecuted like they would be if the student assaulted a police officer. Our schools here in America are a mess. I guarantee a large portion of grandparents and parents would volunteer at least once every two weeks or so.
Atlanticmike wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:36 am

Here's another idea. It drives me crazy when I drive down the road and pass a police precinct building with 20 to 30 cops operating out of each precinct. I say shut the precincts down and put a double wide on the front lawn of every highschool in America and let that be the police precinct. The police would be on school grounds 24/7 with multiple officers, guns, cars and many other deterrent. If my kids have to walk outside to attend class in a trailer because of over crowding, well, the police can have there precinct smack dab in front of the school.
If I'm reading this right, your solution is basically to merge schools with retirement communities and police precincts.

Volunteers are already allowed in schools (after expensive and lengthy background checks). It turns out that not many older folks want to spend day-in and day-out wandering the halls and attending classes with other people's grandchildren. Grandparents are not usually trained mental health professionals.

Police precincts have 20 to 30 cops operating out of each precinct for reasons of organization and communication. Spreading them thinner would be like you assigning one roofer to every house. There are many more hot spots in cities than just schools. We've tried police presence in schools (I think there was an officer at Oxford High at the time of the shooting). I can't see this as a viable solution.

Mike, what do you think of some of the other ideas presented here? For example, what did you think of what Jersey and Gad had to say?
Post Reply