Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related. No insults or personal attacks allowed. Rated G.
Post Reply
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 2468
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Some Schmo »

Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:42 pm
I don't think there is a one single scapegoat in this situation, as it is an amalgamation of a vast variety of things that have been festering in our society for decades. I agree that toxic gun culture is one of those things that needs to go. I agree that common sense gun control needs to be implemented. Those types of things would definitely see a reduction in mass violence in the USA, but I don't think that guns themselves are the cause.
I suspect we're closer in agreement than the casual observer might think. The guns aren't shooting themselves. The problem as far as I'm concerned (other than the toxic gun culture you mentioned) isn't so much that guns can be obtained, but that they can be obtained way too easily by way too many people who aren't trained or responsible enough to own them. Coupling that with high anxiety levels is a recipe for the disasters we see regularly in the US. My understanding is that you can get guns in Canada too, but it's a lot harder.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
User avatar
Kukulkan
High Priest
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:36 pm
Location: Slipping deeper into the earth

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Kukulkan »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:59 pm
Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:32 am


In a more recent context, the pandemic has obviously exacerbated a lot of underlying issues.

On a bigger scale though, I think poverty, lack of social mobility, increased political tension, substance abuse are a few that come to the top of my head.
If you roll back the tape into childhood, do you see any additional issues in play?

Example from this case:... Jennifer Crumbley did not reply, but the same day sent a text to her son stating: "LOL. I'm not mad, but you have to learn not to get caught."

Does that look like a mother who knows how to give a damn about her own child's well being?

Aren't you the pscyh/peds poster? How about attachment disorders?
Not sure what you mean by the 'psych/peds' poster. I think the recent Michigan shooting is troubling one, because not only was the shooter suffering from obvious mental distress, but as you pointed out the parents seemed to be either wantonly negligent recognizing the problem that existed or just didn't care.

I think this somewhat ties into the concept of toxic gun culture that has been discussed. Why are you letting your teenager have free access to a gun? Why are you purchasing your teenager a gun for Black Friday?
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
User avatar
Kukulkan
High Priest
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:36 pm
Location: Slipping deeper into the earth

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Kukulkan »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:22 pm
Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:11 pm
People will find ways to kill themselves in the absence of guns.
Yes, but that is not what statistics show

"Many studies have found that state gun laws that regulate the purchase and possession of firearms can lead to a reduction in suicide rates"
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... sltb.12713

The evidence is overwhelming.

Other studies
"Permissiveness of firearm laws, pro-gun culture, and suicides by firearm in the U.S., 2000–2016"
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5221001439

"Does regulation matter? A cross‐national analysis of the impact of gun policies on homicide and suicide rates"
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... rego.12235

"Guns and suicide: A fatal link"
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/magaz ... d-suicide/

"Guns and Suicide: Are They Related?"
https://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/depres ... d-suicide/
DT, I agree with you.
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
doubtingthomas
God
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:04 pm

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:25 pm


DT, I agree with you.
Okay. Good!
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
User avatar
Kukulkan
High Priest
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:36 pm
Location: Slipping deeper into the earth

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Kukulkan »

Some Schmo wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:23 pm
Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:42 pm
I don't think there is a one single scapegoat in this situation, as it is an amalgamation of a vast variety of things that have been festering in our society for decades. I agree that toxic gun culture is one of those things that needs to go. I agree that common sense gun control needs to be implemented. Those types of things would definitely see a reduction in mass violence in the USA, but I don't think that guns themselves are the cause.
I suspect we're closer in agreement than the casual observer might think. The guns aren't shooting themselves. The problem as far as I'm concerned (other than the toxic gun culture you mentioned) isn't so much that guns can be obtained, but that they can be obtained way too easily by way too many people who aren't trained or responsible enough to own them. Coupling that with high anxiety levels is a recipe for the disasters we see regularly in the US. My understanding is that you can get guns in Canada too, but it's a lot harder.
I think we are in agreement. I feel similarly that it is way too easy to obtain a firearm in this country. I think there are some common sense steps that can be taken to make the process just difficult enough to where I can't buy one on a murderous rampage whim, yet at the same time enjoy the Second Amendment and hunt or shoot for sport.
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 2468
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Some Schmo »

Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:27 pm
I think we are in agreement. I feel similarly that it is way too easy to obtain a firearm in this country. I think there are some common sense steps that can be taken to make the process just difficult enough to where I can't buy one on a murderous rampage whim, yet at the same time enjoy the Second Amendment and hunt or shoot for sport.
The strange thing about all of this is that I would think the people who should be making this argument the loudest are people who are trained, responsible gun owners. Why aren't they attempting to defend responsible gun ownership? Those sentiments are drowned out in a sea of "only when it pry it from my cold dead hands" type arguments.

I know that it's extremely disheartening to me when someone makes bad arguments for something I support.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
User avatar
Kukulkan
High Priest
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:36 pm
Location: Slipping deeper into the earth

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Kukulkan »

Some Schmo wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:40 pm
Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:27 pm
I think we are in agreement. I feel similarly that it is way too easy to obtain a firearm in this country. I think there are some common sense steps that can be taken to make the process just difficult enough to where I can't buy one on a murderous rampage whim, yet at the same time enjoy the Second Amendment and hunt or shoot for sport.
The strange thing about all of this is that I would think the people who should be making this argument the loudest are people who are trained, responsible gun owners. Why aren't they attempting to defend responsible gun ownership? Those sentiments are drowned out in a sea of "only when it pry it from my cold dead hands" type arguments.

I know that it's extremely disheartening to me when someone makes bad arguments for something I support.
Absolutely. I think that responsible gun owners do need speak up more. I think in politics we tend to hear the loudest and most extremist positions on both sides, as those are the positions that garner the most reaction and attention from the opposite side. Call it a self replicating loop if you will.

Shooting happens --> Democrats call for gun control --> Gun nuts further entrench --> Toxic gun culture further promulgated (cycle continues)

I do think that responsible gun owners speaking up is the key that unlocks and stops this cycle. I personally just don't know what it will take to get them to speak up.
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 2468
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Some Schmo »

Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:46 pm
Absolutely. I think that responsible gun owners do need speak up more. I think in politics we tend to hear the loudest and most extremist positions on both sides, as those are the positions that garner the most reaction and attention from the opposite side. Call it a self replicating loop if you will.

Shooting happens --> Democrats call for gun control --> Gun nuts further entrench --> Toxic gun culture further promulgated (cycle continues)

I do think that responsible gun owners speaking up is the key that unlocks and stops this cycle. I personally just don't know what it will take to get them to speak up.
You know, maybe the answer is hidden in your post here. Maybe if Democrats came out just as or more pro-gun as the right, the issue would lose its luster. If there's one thing the right wing hates, it's agreeing with the left.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
User avatar
Kukulkan
High Priest
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:36 pm
Location: Slipping deeper into the earth

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Kukulkan »

Some Schmo wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:52 pm
Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:46 pm
Absolutely. I think that responsible gun owners do need speak up more. I think in politics we tend to hear the loudest and most extremist positions on both sides, as those are the positions that garner the most reaction and attention from the opposite side. Call it a self replicating loop if you will.

Shooting happens --> Democrats call for gun control --> Gun nuts further entrench --> Toxic gun culture further promulgated (cycle continues)

I do think that responsible gun owners speaking up is the key that unlocks and stops this cycle. I personally just don't know what it will take to get them to speak up.
You know, maybe the answer is hidden in your post here. Maybe if Democrats came out just as or more pro-gun as the right, the issue would lose its luster. If there's one thing the right wing hates, it's agreeing with the left.
Now that, is a good idea. :lol: :lol: :lol:
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
User avatar
Jersey Girl
God
Posts: 6827
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:51 am
Location: In my head

Re: Are school shootings the price we have to pay for the second amendment?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:25 pm
Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:59 pm


If you roll back the tape into childhood, do you see any additional issues in play?

Example from this case:... Jennifer Crumbley did not reply, but the same day sent a text to her son stating: "LOL. I'm not mad, but you have to learn not to get caught."

Does that look like a mother who knows how to give a damn about her own child's well being?

Aren't you the pscyh/peds poster? How about attachment disorders?
Not sure what you mean by the 'psych/peds' poster.
My apologies up front. I had you mixed up with another poster.

I think the recent Michigan shooting is troubling one, because not only was the shooter suffering from obvious mental distress, but as you pointed out the parents seemed to be either wantonly negligent recognizing the problem that existed or just didn't care.


I peg them as parents who don't know how to care and that's why I relate it to attachment disorder. I have a whole spiel about this. I'll spare you.
I think this somewhat ties into the concept of toxic gun culture that has been discussed. Why are you letting your teenager have free access to a gun? Why are you purchasing your teenager a gun for Black Friday?
Because in all actuality, they don't give a damn about their kid. Because they don't know how to give a damn about their kid.
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
Post Reply