Kasserian Ingera

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Morley
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Re: Kasserian Ingera

Post by Morley »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:42 am
Morley wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:41 pm


It's not that easy. One person's bully is another person's "my kid was just standing up for herself."

Mike, here's a thought experiment. Let's suppose that you passed the background check and you're an adult volunteer in a public high school. You take Tuesdays and Thursdays off from running your roofing business to help out. After spending a couple of hours photocopying some papers for a few of the teachers you're working with, you see a group of kids teasing another kid. You go up to them and try to intervene. They ignore you. You're insistent. They taunt you a little, then turn their backs and return to ignoring you. What are you going to do?
Turn them in and hopefully they get suspended. There are bullies in this world and we are never going to be able to change that. They don't belong in schools. Especially now when it's really easy to homeschool. The bullies can homeschool, go to community college and work it out from there.
I do think that we can change it somewhat. But, as you imply, it takes enacting a policy of no tolerance and effective and informed remediation. And all that takes money and resources that we're not willing to give to education.

Bullies often see themselves as victims who are just standing up for themselves. Parents of bullies will rarely homeschool. Homeschooling is a crappy remedy, anyway, because the behavior and attitudes don't get addressed.

Bullies in schools generally learn the behavior from their parents or larger society. We have a tendency to glorify bullies in politics. When we praise bullies, who then become role models, we unwittingly create a new generation of them.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Kasserian Ingera

Post by Jersey Girl »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:42 am
Morley wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:41 pm


It's not that easy. One person's bully is another person's "my kid was just standing up for herself."

Mike, here's a thought experiment. Let's suppose that you passed the background check and you're an adult volunteer in a public high school. You take Tuesdays and Thursdays off from running your roofing business to help out. After spending a couple of hours photocopying some papers for a few of the teachers you're working with, you see a group of kids teasing another kid. You go up to them and try to intervene. They ignore you. You're insistent. They taunt you a little, then turn their backs and return to ignoring you. What are you going to do?
Turn them in and hopefully they get suspended. There are bullies in this world and we are never going to be able to change that. They don't belong in schools. Especially now when it's really easy to homeschool. The bullies can homeschool, go to community college and work it out from there.
You've got part of the answer correct. As a school volunteer it is not your job to intervene in student conflict or misbehavior, as much as you would be tempted to do so. That directive will be part of your volunteer training. Don't violate it.

If you witness an incident, stop immediately and call the office. If you can possibly yank a teacher out of a classroom, do that as well but still call the office. While you are waiting for a professional to arrive, document the incident on paper (carry a pad with you or use one of the papers you copied for the teacher). Write what you saw and heard taking place, where you saw it taking place, including student names if you know them and if you don't know the students, write a description of each student involved. Date it. Time stamp it. Sign it. After a professional has arrived, take your report directly to the office. Have the office furnish you with a copy of your report.

On a lighter note and as an alternative, one way to intervene without formally intervening is to disrupt the interaction. You can do this by simply greeting the students. "Hey guys! How's it going?" and say that with a smile on your face. ;-)

If your attempt to disrupt the interaction in a positive way works and the group disperses, you still to provide written documentation of the incident (Including what you did and said when you greeted the group) and don't forget to get that copy of your report for CYA purposes.

ETA: Given the fact that I'm professionally trained and educated to employ behavior guidance techniques as well as providing methods of safe physical restraint if a situation warrants it (I'm trained to know when that is), if I were to volunteer in a public school right now, I could not use those skills in the position of volunteer. I would still have to reduce my role to providing the written documentation that I mentioned above. Know your role. Know your boundaries.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Morley
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Re: Kasserian Ingera

Post by Morley »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:02 pm
If you witness an incident, stop immediately and call the office. If you can possibly yank a teacher out of a classroom, do that as well but still call the office. While you are waiting for a professional to arrive, document the incident on paper (carry a pad with you or use one of the papers you copied for the teacher). Write what you saw and heard taking place, where you saw it taking place, including student names if you know them and if you don't know the students, write a description of each student involved. Date it. Time stamp it. Sign it. After a professional has arrived, take your report directly to the office. Have the office furnish you with a copy of your report.

On a lighter note and as an alternative, one way to intervene without formally intervening is to disrupt the interaction. You can do this by simply greeting the students. "Hey guys! How's it going?" and say that with a smile on your face. ;-)

If your attempt to disrupt the interaction in a positive way works and the group disperses, you still to provide written documentation of the incident (Including what you did and said when you greeted the group) and don't forget to get that copy of your report for CYA purposes.

ETA: Given the fact that I'm professionally trained and educated to employ behavior guidance techniques as well as providing methods of safe physical restraint if a situation warrants it (I'm trained to know when that is), if I were to volunteer in a public school right now, I could not use those skills in the position of volunteer. I would still have to reduce my role to providing the written documentation that I mentioned above. Know your role. Know your boundaries.
Brilliant.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Kasserian Ingera

Post by Jersey Girl »

Morley wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:29 pm
Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:02 pm
If you witness an incident, stop immediately and call the office. If you can possibly yank a teacher out of a classroom, do that as well but still call the office. While you are waiting for a professional to arrive, document the incident on paper (carry a pad with you or use one of the papers you copied for the teacher). Write what you saw and heard taking place, where you saw it taking place, including student names if you know them and if you don't know the students, write a description of each student involved. Date it. Time stamp it. Sign it. After a professional has arrived, take your report directly to the office. Have the office furnish you with a copy of your report.

On a lighter note and as an alternative, one way to intervene without formally intervening is to disrupt the interaction. You can do this by simply greeting the students. "Hey guys! How's it going?" and say that with a smile on your face. ;-)

If your attempt to disrupt the interaction in a positive way works and the group disperses, you still to provide written documentation of the incident (Including what you did and said when you greeted the group) and don't forget to get that copy of your report for CYA purposes.

ETA: Given the fact that I'm professionally trained and educated to employ behavior guidance techniques as well as providing methods of safe physical restraint if a situation warrants it (I'm trained to know when that is), if I were to volunteer in a public school right now, I could not use those skills in the position of volunteer. I would still have to reduce my role to providing the written documentation that I mentioned above. Know your role. Know your boundaries.
Brilliant.
Nah. Education, training, and experience. In this day and age, you could video tape the interaction but I would caution against an adult volunteer doing that because it will violate school policy with regard to photographing and in this case, video taping, students without parent permission. Also, if you video tape, you can expect your entire phone to be searched and you might not want that to happen for whatever reason.

In my view, there's no suitable substitute for written documentation. When you put it in writing, you do it as if your report is the video tape. In my field, that type of report would equal what's called a running record. It's one form of written observations that are used for specific purposes. A running record is time consuming and difficult to keep up with, with time and experience it becomes second nature and you can do it without students knowing what you are doing.

Example: In the case of the high school students picking on another student. You've come out of the office or work room with your copy work. You can simply find a nearby table, or wall to lean against, to stop and write your documentation. You could sit on the floor with your notepad. That is to say, you do it like a fly on the wall. Students will think you're simply making a list or writing a note to yourself.

With young children, I was able to monitor conversations and make notes if I needed to, by simply standing right in front of the group with my back turned to them. If I needed to do a running record, I would station myself at a nearby location where I could see and hear the students, and create the observation. Watch, don't stare. When done discreetly, even high school students won't think that you're monitoring their conversations and interactions. ;-) You'll have to do it in real time so you get it right and don't go from memory when you leave the scene. The report will become part of a file. Get it right the first time. It's a piece of documentation that could potentially become part of a law enforcement or social services case.

I've done documentation for social services and law enforcement, and for the courts. The courts upon request for developmental assessments in cases of children going through the adoption process.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Re: Kasserian Ingera

Post by Father Francis »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:42 am
Especially now when it's really easy to homeschool. The bullies can homeschool, go to community college and work it out from there.
Homeschool is easy?
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Kasserian Ingera

Post by Jersey Girl »

Father Francis wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:41 am
Atlanticmike wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:42 am
Especially now when it's really easy to homeschool. The bullies can homeschool, go to community college and work it out from there.
Homeschool is easy?
Tell that to parents who had to home school during the lock downs. ;-)
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Chap
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Re: Kasserian Ingera

Post by Chap »

In this thread, we see the difference between:

1. Some who approaches a problem with goodwill, and a sincere wish to help, but with no experience of the reality of the problem as encountered on the ground.

2. Someone with real long-term professional experience and training, who has to utter those discouraging words "I can see you want to help, and I agree that <problem under discussion> is a bad thing, but your approach won't actually accomplish anything useful. In fact this is the way to go about it ...".

Now since this is Super Spirit Paradise, the second person is heard with respect. But not so much in the worlds of Fox News or social media, where other rules apply, and the aim is not so much finding our what is actually the case, but maximising indignation amongst an audience whose real knowledge of the situation discussed is likely not to be of a high level.

And so problems are not solved - instead they are shouted about.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
Father Francis
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Re: Kasserian Ingera

Post by Father Francis »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:51 am
Father Francis wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:41 am
Homeschool is easy?
Tell that to parents who had to home school during the lock downs. ;-)
Preaching to the choir in this case.
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Atlanticmike
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Re: Kasserian Ingera

Post by Atlanticmike »

Father Francis wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:41 am
Atlanticmike wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:42 am
Especially now when it's really easy to homeschool. The bullies can homeschool, go to community college and work it out from there.
Homeschool is easy?
Yes. Homeschool was a lifesaver for one of my girls. We enrolled one of my daughters in a homeschool program and also hired a couple of college students to tutor her at the library once a week to help her with math and english. She's a sensitive soul and was having a hard time fitting in while attending 9th grade. My wife works 40 hours a week and helped my daughter for the two years she was homeschooled. Her personality really came out while being homeschooled because she wasn't being picked on at school anymore. She spent many many days in my truck doing her school work while I was driving around checking on jobs. She would spend 10 hours a day with me somedays seeing how a business works and how being self employed can be a great way to make a living. She's already started a little business and loves being self employed. She's a go getter and taking her away from the toxic environment she was in while in 9th grade was the best decision we ever made for her. So yes!! I found it very easy to homeschool my daughter. Was there a lot of sacrifice, yes. Did it eat up a lot of our time, yes. But I would do it again in a heartbeat. By the way, she graduated high school with a 4.1, and attended her highschool graduation. Something I never accomplished.
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Re: Kasserian Ingera

Post by Father Francis »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:06 pm
Father Francis wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:41 am
Homeschool is easy?
Yes. Homeschool was a lifesaver for one of my girls. We enrolled one of my daughters in a homeschool program and also hired a couple of college students to tutor her at the library once a week to help her with math and english. She's a sensitive soul and was having a hard time fitting in while attending 9th grade. My wife works 40 hours a week and helped my daughter for the two years she was homeschooled. Her personality really came out while being homeschooled because she wasn't being picked on at school anymore. She spent many many days in my truck doing her school work while I was driving around checking on jobs. She would spend 10 hours a day with me somedays seeing how a business works and how being self employed can be a great way to make a living. She's already started a little business and loves being self employed. She's a go getter and taking her away from the toxic environment she was in while in 9th grade was the best decision we ever made for her. So yes!! I found it very easy to homeschool my daughter. Was there a lot of sacrifice, yes. Did it eat up a lot of our time, yes. But I would do it again in a heartbeat. By the way, she graduated high school with a 4.1, and attended her highschool graduation. Something I never accomplished.
A 4.1? Lol. Meaningless. Was the the Valedictorian of your homeschool too?

Do you also mock her for learning business from daddy? Think about that and what you said about me. Maybe me and my wife can laugh at your posts later today. Oh noes! We don't do that because we're secure about our personalities.
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