Memes and stuff

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Res Ipsa
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Re: Memes and stuff

Post by Res Ipsa »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:01 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:34 pm

But, really, the model is a a simplified description of human interactions.
Do you think that the "model" is complete?
Not sure I know what you mean. I know we haven't discussed the complete model. I don't think the model is a work in progress at this time, although any model can be revised. If you mean complete in terms of scope, I don't know how to answer that. Just given the nature of models, I suspect there are examples of human interactions that this model is not useful for. Off the top of my head, one example could be the skin to skin contact of mother and child at birth. That certainly is interaction, but it doesn't sound like the model would be a helpful way to think about that.

If "complete" means every description of a dynamic that occurs in human interaction, then I'd say it's not complete in that sense. So, for example, it doesn't explicitly address boundaries or control. It doesn't explicitly address every term you could find in a communications class. I'm sure it doesn't incorporate theories of communication between teachers and preschoolers, because the model assumes choice of response. But in that sense, every model is not complete. A complete model would be reality.

I think of this kind of model as just a framework to help me understand something. Maybe this model is helpful for me in terms of self awareness, but no help to you. Somebody could modify the model to make it focussed on boundaries and control. Maybe that one is of no help to me but it is to you. There must be hundreds, maybe thousands, of different analytical models of human interaction in textbooks and self-help books and online courses and live courses. Is each "complete"? No, because none of them contain everything that is in all the others. For me, the important question is "does it help me understand something about how I interact with others?" If it does, cool. If it doesn't, maybe something else will.

May I ask why the scare quotes around "model." Are you thinking it doesn't qualify as a "model"? Just curious.
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Binger
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Re: Memes and stuff

Post by Binger »

Big huge post from Res
Res, I agree with your assessment and the application of the terms. I will keep using "model," but with the shared understanding of the limitations, images and descriptions.

I also agree that all of this, including the images and model, is a tool. Moving in from the perimeter to the center, you’ll find a spectrum of behaviors that are less and less influenced by the self and care motivations/axes that are overwhelming at the perimeter. For each quadrant, there is a healthy, balanced, centered version of the unhealthy, spun-out, perimeter behavior. So far in this thread, we have compared aggression/assertiveness and submission/surrender. As we move toward the center, imitation becomes service, self-victimization becomes self-care. From the perimeter, the path to healthy change or improved communication is to move back toward the center.

It’s easy, of course, to say, "move to the center, dummy," but what does that even look like? What does it mean? Well, it sure as hell doesn’t mean instantly becoming an enlightened bodhisattva; in fact, it often doesn’t look like anything other than a change in mindset and focus. Despite the simplicity of this model, I, for one, don’t expect my path back to center to look like anybody else’s path. There’s no one-size-fits-all formula. Life isn’t simple, people aren’t simple, and a model is an abstraction. In real life, successfully reaching the center takes purpose, creativity, and practice.

The path from the extremes in the perimeter or outer ring to the center requires experimentation. It isn’t necessarily linear or direct, and it may involve testing strategies and skills that are found in other archetype quadrants. If I realize I'm being an insufferable d*** today, I’ll naturally see that I could perhaps be a bit more considerate and a bit less rigid. I picture where I am on the model: the northeast quadrant, on the selfish end of the self axis and the conscientious end of the care axis. Then nudge my behavior in the selfless direction by doing something for someone else or somethin. Hell, for starters, maybe I will try just seeing a situation from another person’s point of view. The point really is to roll with it, or at least roll differently, for God’s sake.

Forums are an interesting test of the model, but forums obviously have limitations. The model, as a tool, really is about people in real life and this forum experiment is just a subset of that. So yeah. It is a model, Res. But it is also an abstraction. It doesn't mean a damn thing without human interaction applied.
Res Ipsa
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Re: Memes and stuff

Post by Res Ipsa »

Binger wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:34 am
Big huge post from Res
Res, I agree with your assessment and the application of the terms. I will keep using "model," but with the shared understanding of the limitations, images and descriptions.

I also agree that all of this, including the images and model, is a tool. Moving in from the perimeter to the center, you’ll find a spectrum of behaviors that are less and less influenced by the self and care motivations/axes that are overwhelming at the perimeter. For each quadrant, there is a healthy, balanced, centered version of the unhealthy, spun-out, perimeter behavior. So far in this thread, we have compared aggression/assertiveness and submission/surrender. As we move toward the center, imitation becomes service, self-victimization becomes self-care. From the perimeter, the path to healthy change or improved communication is to move back toward the center.

It’s easy, of course, to say, "move to the center, dummy," but what does that even look like? What does it mean? Well, it sure as hell doesn’t mean instantly becoming an enlightened bodhisattva; in fact, it often doesn’t look like anything other than a change in mindset and focus. Despite the simplicity of this model, I, for one, don’t expect my path back to center to look like anybody else’s path. There’s no one-size-fits-all formula. Life isn’t simple, people aren’t simple, and a model is an abstraction. In real life, successfully reaching the center takes purpose, creativity, and practice.

The path from the extremes in the perimeter or outer ring to the center requires experimentation. It isn’t necessarily linear or direct, and it may involve testing strategies and skills that are found in other archetype quadrants. If I realize I'm being an insufferable d*** today, I’ll naturally see that I could perhaps be a bit more considerate and a bit less rigid. I picture where I am on the model: the northeast quadrant, on the selfish end of the self axis and the conscientious end of the care axis. Then nudge my behavior in the selfless direction by doing something for someone else or somethin. Hell, for starters, maybe I will try just seeing a situation from another person’s point of view. The point really is to roll with it, or at least roll differently, for God’s sake.

Forums are an interesting test of the model, but forums obviously have limitations. The model, as a tool, really is about people in real life and this forum experiment is just a subset of that. So yeah. It is a model, Res. But it is also an abstraction. It doesn't mean a damn thing without human interaction applied.
Yeah, that last be is also how I think about it.
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Re: Memes and stuff

Post by Binger »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:30 am
Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:01 pm


Do you think that the "model" is complete?
I don't think the model is a work in progress at this time, although any model can be revised.
I would say that in terms of the model as an archetype model, it is not a work in progress. In terms of looking for interesting and new interpretations or applications of the model, oh hell YES.
Res Ipsa
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Re: Memes and stuff

Post by Res Ipsa »

Binger wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:40 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:30 am
I don't think the model is a work in progress at this time, although any model can be revised.
I would say that in terms of the model as an archetype model, it is not a work in progress. In terms of looking for interesting and new interpretations or applications of the model, oh hell YES.
That sounds fair.
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Re: Memes and stuff

Post by Binger »

Before we move on to imitation and victimization, I want to round out the selfless and conscientious quadrant.

Being selfless and having an acute awareness of others is a heavy burden. It takes immense strength to give more than you get, which is what selfless and conscientious people often do. The opposite of “like a p*****” is not “like a man.” To hell with that. The ubiquitous “man up” BS has got to end. If anything, we need to “man in.” “Manning in” requires us to own our own roles and actions, including our spun-out reactions, surrendering to reality not with disgust, but with boldness. This includes our vulnerability. We have to quit propagating the idea that a real man is a solid, unmovable thing.

The gift of this orientation is the profound generosity to make the experience of others a priority and to do so sincerely. A centered man in this quadrant, one who surrenders to reality in a reasonable way instead of reflexively submitting to everything, is able to make choices with concern for others and for the facts. He is humble, not debased; he is adaptable, not passive-aggressive. He is a peacemaker, a real peacemaker, with a gift for harmonizing perspectives and finding the common ground. We certainly need more of that. We need people who engage with reality, and who contribute, without asking for power or pity.

We are capable of getting along with others because we use tools from this quadrant—we have learned to see the world from other perspectives, to find common ground when disagreements arise, and to meet the needs of others while keeping things fair for everybody. Without selfless and conscientious people, humanity would be isolated and hopeless. Selfless and conscientious people make a place at life’s table for everybody; we need more of that!
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