Libertarian Utopias

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Res Ipsa
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Res Ipsa »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:51 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:38 pm


You'll have to ask Shades if you want a specific answer. My general understanding is that he wanted to create a forum where Mormons and critics of Mormonism could engage with each other about Mormonism without the heavy handed content moderation that had occurred elsewhere. But the long timers here may have a more reliable understanding.
Nowhere in your response do you mention entertainment. Shades set this board up for entertainment. He wanted people to come here to enjoy freedoms they don’t get on other message boards and he wanted them to be entertained while being here. That can’t be accomplished when there’s little or big cliques being formed on the board. And I’m telling you as an outsider, you guys have formed a clique and you’re clique doesn’t enjoy entertainment. Actually, when I read post from the people in your clique entertainment seems to be the last thing you guys are interested in.

Take Binger for instance. Isn’t Binger’s entertainment objective the ultimate goal of this message board? And isn’t that goal meant to avoid cliques that become a mob rule?
Long timers are free to correct me, but when Shades said this recently, it was the first time I'd ever heard him say it. In fact, I was very surprised when he posted it. But, if you're going to use that as justification for your behavior here, you have to view the statement through Libertarian glasses. And one of the foundations of libertarianism is not using others as a means to an end. If someone acts abusively toward another because they are entertained by the reaction, they are acting contrary to Libertarianism. On the other hand, if I derive entertainment out of my own posting and the choices people make in responding to me, that's cool. It's just fine to appreciate and enjoy people for who they are -- it's not fine to to harass, annoy and provoke others because one is entertained by people's reactions when you piss them off.

"Entertainment" is a pretty subjective concept. What you consider "entertaining" might not be "entertaining" to me. And vice versa. That you don't find the normal interactions here entertaining doesn't mean that I don't. Or that anyone else doesn't. I certainly don't buy your claim that "entertainment" has anything to do with cliques.

I've asked Shades about that particular statement and I don't believe he's answered. That's okay -- he doesn't owe me an answer. But if I truly believed that "entertainment," meaning provoking, harassing, and abusing others for one's own amusement, I'd quit this crappy job in a heartbeat. Moderating a board that exists for that ultimate purpose is not worth a second of my time -- either by moderating or participating. A free speech board based on foundational Libertarian values is.

As for cliques, they are inevitable in human society. But in all the months you've been here, you haven't made the slightest effort to get to know the people here well enough to even spot the actual cliques that exist on the board. You threw a single label on a whole bunch of people and reacted to your own label rather than the actual people they are.

So, no, I don't believe that Binger's entertainment objective is the ultimate goal of this forum. On this forum, Binger harasses and abuses other folks for his own personal entertainment. Just like people that get their jollies pulling the wings off of flies. And I don't think that's what Shades had in mind when he talked about entertainment.

But let's not guess:

SHADES, PLEASE READ THE ABOVE EXCHANGES BETWEEN MIKE AND ME AND TELL ME WHETHER THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS ENTERTAINMENT AS HE HAS DESCRIBED IT. BECAUSE IF IT IS, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN ASSISTING WITH THAT EFFORT.

There. We'll settle this issue shortly. If you are right, then I'll confess that I've wasted a ton of my time and leave y'all to it.
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Marcus »

Shades did say entertainment is a goal, but he was also pretty clear about the effects of one person’s entertainment on others, which seems to be a crucial distinction missed by the poster you are discussing this with, Res Ipsa:
Dr. Shades wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:30 am
EVERYONE:

I have some basic philosophies regarding this board. Rather than list them all, here are the four that are relevant to this thread:

1. If someone comes here and insists on building a monument to his/her own inanity, why should I stop or prevent him/her from doing so?
2. What good is a Libertarian utopia if no one wants to live there?

Those two guiding principles can be mutually contradictory, so proper moderation is always a delicate balancing act.

3. Entertainment is the ultimate goal of this message board--even for new people, so as to avoid the formation of cliques.
4. When one person's entertainment degrades others' entertainment, we must play "Jeremy Bentham" and moderate according to what the greatest good is for the greatest number.

That, too, is a delicate balancing act….

Last edited by Marcus on Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Marcus »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:25 pm
[

So, no, I don't believe that Binger's entertainment objective is the ultimate goal of this forum. On this forum, Binger harasses and abuses other folks for his own personal entertainment. Just like people that get their jollies pulling the wings off of flies. And I don't think that's what Shades had in mind when he talked about entertainment.
I agree, that’s clearly NOT what Shades had in mind, based on his post.
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Res Ipsa »

Marcus wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:33 pm
Shades did say entertainment is a goal, but he was also pretty clear about the effects of one person’s entertainment on others, which seems to be a crucial distinction missed by the poster you are discussing this with, Res Ipsa:
Dr. Shades wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:30 am
EVERYONE:

I have some basic philosophies regarding this board. Rather than list them all, here are the four that are relevant to this thread:

1. If someone comes here and insists on building a monument to his/her own inanity, why should I stop or prevent him/her from doing so?
2. What good is a Libertarian utopia if no one wants to live there?

Those two guiding principles can be mutually contradictory, so proper moderation is always a delicate balancing act.

3. Entertainment is the ultimate goal of this message board--even for new people, so as to avoid the formation of cliques.
4. When one person's entertainment degrades others' entertainment, we must play "Jeremy Bentham" and moderate according to what the greatest good is for the greatest number.

That, too, is a delicate balancing act….

Ah, thanks for the reminder, Marcus. I had forgotten the entire post. That puts a ton of context around Shades' statement. When Shades talks about one person's entertainment degrading someone else's, that's entirely consistent with the Libertarian value of not using another person as a means to an end.

I'll take number 4 as the answer to my question.
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Atlanticmike »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:25 pm
Atlanticmike wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:51 pm


Nowhere in your response do you mention entertainment. Shades set this board up for entertainment. He wanted people to come here to enjoy freedoms they don’t get on other message boards and he wanted them to be entertained while being here. That can’t be accomplished when there’s little or big cliques being formed on the board. And I’m telling you as an outsider, you guys have formed a clique and you’re clique doesn’t enjoy entertainment. Actually, when I read post from the people in your clique entertainment seems to be the last thing you guys are interested in.

Take Binger for instance. Isn’t Binger’s entertainment objective the ultimate goal of this message board? And isn’t that goal meant to avoid cliques that become a mob rule?
Long timers are free to correct me, but when Shades said this recently, it was the first time I'd ever heard him say it. In fact, I was very surprised when he posted it. But, if you're going to use that as justification for your behavior here, you have to view the statement through Libertarian glasses. And one of the foundations of libertarianism is not using others as a means to an end. If someone acts abusively toward another because they are entertained by the reaction, they are acting contrary to Libertarianism. On the other hand, if I derive entertainment out of my own posting and the choices people make in responding to me, that's cool. It's just fine to appreciate and enjoy people for who they are -- it's not fine to to harass, annoy and provoke others because one is entertained by people's reactions when you piss them off.

"Entertainment" is a pretty subjective concept. What you consider "entertaining" might not be "entertaining" to me. And vice versa. That you don't find the normal interactions here entertaining doesn't mean that I don't. Or that anyone else doesn't. I certainly don't buy your claim that "entertainment" has anything to do with cliques.

I've asked Shades about that particular statement and I don't believe he's answered. That's okay -- he doesn't owe me an answer. But if I truly believed that "entertainment," meaning provoking, harassing, and abusing others for one's own amusement, I'd quit this crappy job in a heartbeat. Moderating a board that exists for that ultimate purpose is not worth a second of my time -- either by moderating or participating. A free speech board based on foundational Libertarian values is.

As for cliques, they are inevitable in human society. But in all the months you've been here, you haven't made the slightest effort to get to know the people here well enough to even spot the actual cliques that exist on the board. You threw a single label on a whole bunch of people and reacted to your own label rather than the actual people they are.

So, no, I don't believe that Binger's entertainment objective is the ultimate goal of this forum. On this forum, Binger harasses and abuses other folks for his own personal entertainment. Just like people that get their jollies pulling the wings off of flies. And I don't think that's what Shades had in mind when he talked about entertainment.

But let's not guess:

SHADES, PLEASE READ THE ABOVE EXCHANGES BETWEEN MIKE AND ME AND TELL ME WHETHER THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS ENTERTAINMENT AS HE HAS DESCRIBED IT. BECAUSE IF IT IS, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN ASSISTING WITH THAT EFFORT.

There. We'll settle this issue shortly. If you are right, then I'll confess that I've wasted a ton of my time and leave y'all to it.
Since you are a moderator, I would suggest you go read Shades opening post again in the “I HEREBY STEP DOWN FOR NOW” thread. What’s the first clue Shades isn’t happy about stepping down? Well, it’s the way he titled the thread. Shades absolutely hates when someone types in all capital letters. Second, look at the date under the first sentence in the opening post. It’s 11-26-21. Why is that relevant? It’s when he explained what his goal for this board was. You don’t need to ask the old timers. Shades himself explained it to you on 11-26-21.

And you are 100% wrong about Binger’s entertainment objective. Binger’s right and you are wrong. I just proved that. And also we’re here in super spirit paradise and apparently you couldn’t resist insulting Binger by saying he harasses and abuses. You should moderate yourself.

Here. This is for you to study tonight.
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Last edited by Atlanticmike on Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Marcus »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:37 pm
Marcus wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:33 pm
Shades did say entertainment is a goal, but he was also pretty clear about the effects of one person’s entertainment on others, which seems to be a crucial distinction missed by the poster you are discussing this with, Res Ipsa:
Ah, thanks for the reminder, Marcus. I had forgotten the entire post. That puts a ton of context around Shades' statement. When Shades talks about one person's entertainment degrading someone else's, that's entirely consistent with the Libertarian value of not using another person as a means to an end.

I'll take number 4 as the answer to my question.
I would too. I feel like he is using “entertainment” in a very very broad sense, but in no way to include abusing others, or even to include destroying entertainment value, as interpreted by others.

Sort of the forum equivalent of saying one’s right to swing one’s fist ends before another’s nose begins, or that free speech doesn’t include the right to shout “fire!!” In a crowded theatre.

Am’s emphasis on cliques is misplaced, in my opinion, as it seems Shades just included that as a way to make sure all are welcome, not to argue against any agreement or natural grouping among members.
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

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Hey Res. You do realize Shades has a Binger quote at the bottom of his page for his signature? Shades finds Binger very entertaining and also very smart along with me, ceeboo and a bunch of other posters. Why does it seem like you guys NEED to get rid of Binger?
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Res Ipsa »

I reread it. Again. In contrast to you, I read all four numbered points. Why did you cut that last one off?

As I told Marcus, I had not remembered Shades's entire post -- just his statement about entertainment. Having read the whole post, I understand his point about new people having the same right to entertainment as old hands. But you aren't new people here.

Having reread the entire post -- including the part you left out -- I think my opinion is much more aligned with Shades's than yours is. Paragraph 4 is completely consistent with the Libertarian value of not using people as means to an end. And the very essence of trolling is using other people as a means to an end. A substantial number of people here have expressed that the way you choose to entertain yourself is degrading their entertainment. So, Shades' intent is clear: we must moderate according to the greatest good for the greatest number.

You can disagree with me about Binger's entertainment. But it is not an insult to state a completely accurate description of what he considers entertainment -- at least his entertainment here. You haven't proven him right about anything. In fact, all you've done is alerted me to Shades's own guidance for what a moderator should do in this exact situation: moderate according to the greatest good for the greatest number. That's not a very hard call at this point, is it?

Of course Shades isn't happy about the action he took. I'm not happy about it either. But he did what he did, and now I'm among the three of us who are specifically charged with acting for the greatest good for the greatest number.
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Atlanticmike »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:07 am
I reread it. Again. In contrast to you, I read all four numbered points. Why did you cut that last one off?

As I told Marcus, I had not remembered Shades's entire post -- just his statement about entertainment. Having read the whole post, I understand his point about new people having the same right to entertainment as old hands. But you aren't new people here.

Having reread the entire post -- including the part you left out -- I think my opinion is much more aligned with Shades's than yours is. Paragraph 4 is completely consistent with the Libertarian value of not using people as means to an end. And the very essence of trolling is using other people as a means to an end. A substantial number of people here have expressed that the way you choose to entertain yourself is degrading their entertainment. So, Shades' intent is clear: we must moderate according to the greatest good for the greatest number.

You can disagree with me about Binger's entertainment. But it is not an insult to state a completely accurate description of what he considers entertainment -- at least his entertainment here. You haven't proven him right about anything. In fact, all you've done is alerted me to Shades's own guidance for what a moderator should do in this exact situation: moderate according to the greatest good for the greatest number. That's not a very hard call at this point, is it?

Of course Shades isn't happy about the action he took. I'm not happy about it either. But he did what he did, and now I'm among the three of us who are specifically charged with acting for the greatest good for the greatest number.
You’re upset because I proved you wrong. 100% wrong and everyone knows lawyers hate being proven wrong, especially by a uneducated roofer. No matter how you use your lawyer spin, Shades said the ultimate goal for this board is entertainment. And in my opinion your clique is 100% trying to remove entertainment from the equation. You’re here to have your cognitive dissonance stroked, not be entertained. That’s exactly what you said in the post above.
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Res Ipsa »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:54 pm
Hey Res. You do realize Shades has a Binger quote at the bottom of his page for his signature? Shades finds Binger very entertaining and also very smart along with me, ceeboo and a bunch of other posters. Why does it seem like you guys NEED to get rid of Binger?
Mike, in case you have forgotten, I'm one of the three people that Shades has entrusted to address this situation with you and Binger. He knows exactly what my views are, as I've posted many, many times on the issue. So, why do you think I'll be persuaded by his signature line?

As Shades puts it, your "entertainment" is degrading many others' "entertainment." If you want to make an effective argument at this point, you need to persuade me that taking no action in light of your continual trolling does the greatest good for the greatest number. I consider Ceeboo a friend, but if i accept your argument, then it would be completely open season on trolling Ceeboo 24/7 about his religion. I'd have to stop moderating Kevin's 12-year old quotes of Ajax from another forum. I'd have to call open season on trolling of everyone about anything at any time. Your way leaves the board a complete shambles because you conveniently leave out the part about degrading others' entertainment.

I'm not willing to forget paragraph 4.
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