Libertarian Utopias

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Res Ipsa
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Libertarian Utopias

Post by Res Ipsa »

I have a good friend who is a Libertarian and we've had lots of interesting and informative (for me) discussions. I've concluded that there are lots of misconceptions about Libertarians floating around the public. One thing that folks commonly do not understand is that Libertarianism doesn't just mean getting to do what you want to do and no one can stop you. Libertarianism is based on shared values that include self-restraint in the exercise of liberty. That commitment to self-restraint takes the place of many restrictions we currently impose by law.

In the area of speech, I think there are two important values that form the foundation of a free speech forum. First, I will not use my free speech to interfere with ability of others to speak. Second, I view other people as an end unto themselves; I will not use other people as a means to an end. Trolling violates both of these foundational values.

Atlanticmike is trying to control how other people speak on the board by trolling them. No sincere Libertarian committed to a free speech forum would do that. Binger has said he trolls to entertain himself. That's using others as a means to an end. Again, that is not what any sincere Libertarian would do.

Personally, I'm not in favor of backing off Shades' goal of creating a Libertarian utopia in the form of a free speech forum here. In a perfect world, there would be no need for rules or moderators because everyone who posts here would have a deep commitment to the same set of values. But we don't have that commitment, and so we are required to enforce by rule what a real Libertarian would do without any prompting. How to do that effectively and with minimal intervention is what I'm thinking about today.
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Alas
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Alas »

Trolling is an attempt to disrupt the board, so really it is an attempt to destroy the board. You just have to look honestly at Shades rules already in force and poof, there is plenty of reason to ban those who would destroy the discussion board.
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Analytics »

That's an interesting point and reminds me of that John Adams quote, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

I've been thinking about that quote a lot since the last presidential elections, and maybe the same principle applies with regards to this board.

Marx's vision for society was based on a faith that to me seems quite religious--I can't think of a better word than that. He thought that we temporarily needed capitalism to break free of feudalism and poverty--to create wealth and infrastructure. But after going through the capitalism phase, we then need a revolution of the workers to claim the wealth that they created and were entitled to. This would be a "dictatorship of the working class" that would result in a just, fair, and wealthy society. But that wasn't the ultimate vision. Marx's vision was ultimate freedom and ultimate small government. His thought if we eliminated classes of people we would eliminate the source of civil strife. Once that was gone, we could all live in wealth and freedom. We could live in a Utopia of anarchy.

Anarchy has a strange connotation. You say the word and people imagine a lawless society where everybody has bars on their windows, carries around guns, and takes what they want from the weak. Actual self-described anarchists would likely say that is the opposite of their vision. Their vision is a society where everybody is noble and virtuous, and therefore no rules, regulations, or government authority are necessary.

On the other end of the spectrum is Joseph Smith's predilection for monarchies. He said, "If it were possible that you could have just men to be your kings, who would establish the laws of God, and judge this people according to his commandments, yea, if ye could have men for your kings who would do even as my father Benjamin did for this people—I say unto you, if this could always be the case then it would be expedient that ye should always have kings to rule over you."

Comparing Joseph Smith's vision of an ideal monarchy to the John Adams quote to Marx's view of anarchy to your view of "sincere" Libertarians suggests that if people and leaders were always of virtuous character and good judgement, a wide variety social structures would work fine.
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Atlanticmike
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Atlanticmike »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:43 pm
I have a good friend who is a Libertarian and we've had lots of interesting and informative (for me) discussions. I've concluded that there are lots of misconceptions about Libertarians floating around the public. One thing that folks commonly do not understand is that Libertarianism doesn't just mean getting to do what you want to do and no one can stop you. Libertarianism is based on shared values that include self-restraint in the exercise of liberty. That commitment to self-restraint takes the place of many restrictions we currently impose by law.

In the area of speech, I think there are two important values that form the foundation of a free speech forum. First, I will not use my free speech to interfere with ability of others to speak. Second, I view other people as an end unto themselves; I will not use other people as a means to an end. Trolling violates both of these foundational values.

Atlanticmike is trying to control how other people speak on the board by trolling them. No sincere Libertarian committed to a free speech forum would do that. Binger has said he trolls to entertain himself. That's using others as a means to an end. Again, that is not what any sincere Libertarian would do.

Personally, I'm not in favor of backing off Shades' goal of creating a Libertarian utopia in the form of a free speech forum here. In a perfect world, there would be no need for rules or moderators because everyone who posts here would have a deep commitment to the same set of values. But we don't have that commitment, and so we are required to enforce by rule what a real Libertarian would do without any prompting. How to do that effectively and with minimal intervention is what I'm thinking about today.
What was the commitment before I arrived on the scene?
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Res Ipsa »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:55 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:43 pm
I have a good friend who is a Libertarian and we've had lots of interesting and informative (for me) discussions. I've concluded that there are lots of misconceptions about Libertarians floating around the public. One thing that folks commonly do not understand is that Libertarianism doesn't just mean getting to do what you want to do and no one can stop you. Libertarianism is based on shared values that include self-restraint in the exercise of liberty. That commitment to self-restraint takes the place of many restrictions we currently impose by law.

In the area of speech, I think there are two important values that form the foundation of a free speech forum. First, I will not use my free speech to interfere with ability of others to speak. Second, I view other people as an end unto themselves; I will not use other people as a means to an end. Trolling violates both of these foundational values.

Atlanticmike is trying to control how other people speak on the board by trolling them. No sincere Libertarian committed to a free speech forum would do that. Binger has said he trolls to entertain himself. That's using others as a means to an end. Again, that is not what any sincere Libertarian would do.

Personally, I'm not in favor of backing off Shades' goal of creating a Libertarian utopia in the form of a free speech forum here. In a perfect world, there would be no need for rules or moderators because everyone who posts here would have a deep commitment to the same set of values. But we don't have that commitment, and so we are required to enforce by rule what a real Libertarian would do without any prompting. How to do that effectively and with minimal intervention is what I'm thinking about today.
What was the commitment before I arrived on the scene?
No, Mike. You don't get to excuse your own bad behavior by pointing to someone else's bad behavior. You are responsible for you own posts -- not anyone else's.
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Atlanticmike
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Atlanticmike »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:04 pm
Atlanticmike wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:55 pm


What was the commitment before I arrived on the scene?
No, Mike. You don't get to excuse your own bad behavior by pointing to someone else's bad behavior. You are responsible for you own posts -- not anyone else's.
This is a very simple question. You said “ in a perfect world, there would be no need for rules or moderators because everyone who post here would have a deep commitment to the same set of values.” What’s the commitment and was there one here before I arrived on the scene? By asking this simple question, im not excusing my “bad behavior”. Are you guys trying to find something I took away by becoming a member of the board?
Res Ipsa
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Res Ipsa »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:08 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:04 pm


No, Mike. You don't get to excuse your own bad behavior by pointing to someone else's bad behavior. You are responsible for you own posts -- not anyone else's.
This is a very simple question. You said “ in a perfect world, there would be no need for rules or moderators because everyone who post here would have a deep commitment to the same set of values.” What’s the commitment and was there one here before I arrived on the scene? By asking this simple question, im not excusing my “bad behavior”. Are you guys trying to find something I took away by becoming a member of the board?
The commitment to values are the ones I described in my opening post. This board has had moderators for years, so obviously this is not the perfect world I described. You happened to arrive when our moderator had disappeared and, in effect, there was no moderation.

I don't understand your last sentence. I'm not trying to find anything that has to do with you.
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Atlanticmike
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Atlanticmike »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:50 pm
Atlanticmike wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:08 pm


This is a very simple question. You said “ in a perfect world, there would be no need for rules or moderators because everyone who post here would have a deep commitment to the same set of values.” What’s the commitment and was there one here before I arrived on the scene? By asking this simple question, im not excusing my “bad behavior”. Are you guys trying to find something I took away by becoming a member of the board?
The commitment to values are the ones I described in my opening post. This board has had moderators for years, so obviously this is not the perfect world I described. You happened to arrive when our moderator had disappeared and, in effect, there was no moderation.

I don't understand your last sentence. I'm not trying to find anything that has to do with you.
Why did Shades start this board? Why is it open for anyone to join?
Res Ipsa
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Res Ipsa »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:38 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:50 pm


The commitment to values are the ones I described in my opening post. This board has had moderators for years, so obviously this is not the perfect world I described. You happened to arrive when our moderator had disappeared and, in effect, there was no moderation.

I don't understand your last sentence. I'm not trying to find anything that has to do with you.
Why did Shades start this board? Why is it open for anyone to join?
You'll have to ask Shades if you want a specific answer. My general understanding is that he wanted to create a forum where mormons and critics of mormonism could engage with each other about mormonism without the heavy handed content moderation that had occurred elsewhere. But the long timers here may have a more reliable understanding.
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Re: Libertarian Utopias

Post by Atlanticmike »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:38 pm
Atlanticmike wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:38 pm


Why did Shades start this board? Why is it open for anyone to join?
You'll have to ask Shades if you want a specific answer. My general understanding is that he wanted to create a forum where mormons and critics of mormonism could engage with each other about mormonism without the heavy handed content moderation that had occurred elsewhere. But the long timers here may have a more reliable understanding.
Nowhere in your response do you mention entertainment. Shades set this board up for entertainment. He wanted people to come here to enjoy freedoms they don’t get on other message boards and he wanted them to be entertained while being here. That can’t be accomplished when there’s little or big cliques being formed on the board. And I’m telling you as an outsider, you guys have formed a clique and your clique doesn’t enjoy entertainment. Actually, when I read post from the people in your clique entertainment seems to be the last thing you guys are interested in.

Take Binger for instance. Isn’t Binger’s entertainment objective the ultimate goal of this message board? And isn’t that goal meant to avoid cliques that become a mob rule?
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