Did Trump "Drain" the swamp?

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Markk
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Re: Did Trump "Drain" the swamp?

Post by Markk »

Pakes…

How did he do on fast tracking the vaccines?
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canpakes
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Re: Did Trump "Drain" the swamp?

Post by canpakes »

Markk wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:13 am
canpakes wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:31 pm



More correctly, your question about ‘the economy’ is ridiculously vague.

Pick any number of more-specific items associated with ‘the economy’, and let’s discuss.
LOL… it is a simple question. It’s not vague, did he do a good job with the economy or not? Your answer is what was vague.
Ask a vague question, and a vague answer is what you’ll likely get.

I think he did a great job overall. I think A’s are hard to get, but overall a high B.
His performance on the economy matches my own performance on traffic and accidents when I stand on a street corner and watch cars go by. There’s a similar level of involvement for both.

Your answer was that he basically did not screw up Obama’s (or someone else economy) …so I guess in your mind he did nothing and he did not effect the economy in his four years one way or the other.
You keep repeating that weird misunderstanding that you hold, that ‘the economy’ - which you aren’t even trying to define - starts and stops on 4 year intervals concurrent with new Presidential terms.

I asked earlier if you could name some specific things related to or part of the economy that you’d like to examine. Are you just dodging that question like you are the one about Ukraine aid?
Markk
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Re: Did Trump "Drain" the swamp?

Post by Markk »

canpakes wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 3:23 am
Markk wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:13 am


LOL… it is a simple question. It’s not vague, did he do a good job with the economy or not? Your answer is what was vague.
Ask a vague question, and a vague answer is what you’ll likely get.

I think he did a great job overall. I think A’s are hard to get, but overall a high B.
His performance on the economy matches my own performance on traffic and accidents when I stand on a street corner and watch cars go by. There’s a similar level of involvement for both.

Your answer was that he basically did not screw up Obama’s (or someone else economy) …so I guess in your mind he did nothing and he did not effect the economy in his four years one way or the other.
You keep repeating that weird misunderstanding that you hold, that ‘the economy’ - which you aren’t even trying to define - starts and stops on 4 year intervals concurrent with new Presidential terms.

I asked earlier if you could name some specific things related to or part of the economy that you’d like to examine. Are you just dodging that question like you are the one about Ukraine aid?
ok Pakes…sure…

It is just a general question of how he generally handled the economy…the reality is you can’t be objective enough, or real enough to even entertain that Trump might have been effective in some of the general category’s presidents run on, like the economy, foreign relations and policy, in this case covid… Res understood my question and answered it…he did not think it was a weird question, asking how a president did on the economy is not a weird question.
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canpakes
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Re: Did Trump "Drain" the swamp?

Post by canpakes »

Markk wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:49 am
…he did not think it was a weird question, asking how a president did on the economy is not a weird question.

Oh, I never called it a weird question. Just a very vague question, and largely meaningless.

Even vague enough that you’re unwilling to pursue the details within it.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Did Trump "Drain" the swamp?

Post by Res Ipsa »

Markk wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:17 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:50 pm


You hit on my two major criticisms of his economic policy. Overall, he didn’t try to fix something that wasn’t broken and so stayed out of the way of the recovery he inherited. The tax cuts were typically stupidly timed fiscal policy. There’s no need to juice an economy that’s running hot. When the economy is strong is the time to shrink the deficit — not blow it wide open. Badgering the Fed to leave interest rates at their ultra low levels when there started to be indicators of inflation was also a poor move. But that’s consistent with his fixation with the stock market as the measure of the country’s economic health. My third criticism would be drastically restricting immigration in a tightening labor market. Excluding immigration, the US population is shrinking. Without immigration, labor shortages will create even more inflation.

But, overall, I’d give him a B for not getting in the way of the economy.
So then if it tanks today…it will be either Obama’s fault,or Bidens? Is that fair…but anyways B is better than average. So IYO…he did a very good job. Is that fair?
No. We’re part of a global economy. The President of the US doesn’t control the basic forces that result in the business cycle. No matter how well the US handles the Pandemic, the US economy is going to be affected by how the Pandemic affects other countries. If China locks down geographical areas completely, then US companies that depend on Chinese parts will be short of goods to supply, resulting in higher prices, The US President has no ability to set COVID policy in China.

Russia’s war against Ukraine will reduce global supplies of wheat. Normally, India could pick up the slack, But an early and unexpected heat wave has damaged Indias wheat crop. Again, the US President has no control over the war or weather in India.

The global economy can go to hell and there’s nothing the US President can do about it. I assess the President’s performance on the economy based on decisions he makes in response to forces he can’t control. Obama inherited an economy that was in the crappier, and I give him high marks for pushing stimulus packages and helping some large companies stay in business, preserving good American jobs. The crash itself was beyond his control, so it’s silly to claim it was his fault. I’d give him an A for his economic policy.

Trump inherited a fairly decent recovery and has the good sense not to mess with it. Yes, he did some things that contributed to inflation we are seeing now, including choking off the supply of workers. That sounds like B material to me. I think staying out of the way off the recovery was the most important thing he did, which is why I gave him B.
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Re: Did Trump "Drain" the swamp?

Post by K Graham »

Markk wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:43 am
Pakes…

How did he do on fast tracking the vaccines?
Tell me. What's the point of having a vaccine if you can't get it to the people? Trump's "plan" to disburse the vaccine was nothing short of a train wreck because he had no plan and millions of vials were sitting in cold storage while Americans died.

Trump administration had no coronavirus vaccine distribution plan: White House

When Pfizer developed the first vaccine, the NYT reported:
Pfizer has distanced itself from Mr. Trump and Operation Warp Speed. In an interview on Sunday, Kathrin Jansen, a senior vice president and the head of vaccine research and development at Pfizer, said, “We were never part of the Warp Speed,” adding, “we have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone.”
So the vaccine creation relied on zero funding from Trump's "warp speed."

For months we had a vaccine while Americans were still dying by the thousands every day because he wanted to leave it up to the states to handle the logistics. But it wasn't until Biden took over and he federalized the process making vaccinations free to any American who wanted it.
The Biden administration has set out a Covid action plan, which includes measures to facilitate the distribution of vaccines.

The president wants to increase state funding, calling for a $25 billion package for vaccination manufacturing and distribution. This will have to be approved by US lawmakers.

He's planning to open 100 federally funded vaccination sites, as well as mobile units to reach people in remote areas, staffing them with thousands of workers.

More pharmacies will also be used as vaccination sites, further expanding the pool of health professionals delivering vaccines.

And in a significant departure from the previous administration, Biden's team has proposed releasing all available vaccine doses as soon as they become available.
From day one Biden was proving his leadership abilities were far superior than Trump.
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honorentheos
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Re: Did Trump "Drain" the swamp?

Post by honorentheos »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:55 am
Markk wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:17 am


So then if it tanks today…it will be either Obama’s fault,or Bidens? Is that fair…but anyways B is better than average. So IYO…he did a very good job. Is that fair?
No. We’re part of a global economy. The President of the US doesn’t control the basic forces that result in the business cycle. No matter how well the US handles the Pandemic, the US economy is going to be affected by how the Pandemic affects other countries. If China locks down geographical areas completely, then US companies that depend on Chinese parts will be short of goods to supply, resulting in higher prices, The US President has no ability to set COVID policy in China.

Russia’s war against Ukraine will reduce global supplies of wheat. Normally, India could pick up the slack, But an early and unexpected heat wave has damaged Indias wheat crop. Again, the US President has no control over the war or weather in India.

The global economy can go to hell and there’s nothing the US President can do about it. I assess the President’s performance on the economy based on decisions he makes in response to forces he can’t control. Obama inherited an economy that was in the crappier, and I give him high marks for pushing stimulus packages and helping some large companies stay in business, preserving good American jobs. The crash itself was beyond his control, so it’s silly to claim it was his fault. I’d give him an A for his economic policy.

Trump inherited a fairly decent recovery and has the good sense not to mess with it. Yes, he did some things that contributed to inflation we are seeing now, including choking off the supply of workers. That sounds like B material to me. I think staying out of the way off the recovery was the most important thing he did, which is why I gave him B.
I don't know that he got out of the way, though. For example, the trade wars were a drag on multiple industries and created uncertainty.

I also tend to believe our two party system functions like a pendulum, where the swing between party goals isn't necessarily immediately responsive but does tend to correct against excesses. Trump stepped in at a point when the swing was towards seeing the rhetoric of Paul Ryan-types have their day to cut away at government spending which Trump hijacked and pushed even more spending instead while cutting taxes and the ability to pay for that spending.

in my opinion, that spending has opportunity costs when looked at over time as the burden of that debt isn't going away but the programs and services it paid for have no actual benefits. He effectively stole a cycle of higher government spending and prevented on of restriction. We are paying for some of the now. Biden's BBB plan is likely a casualty of sentiment against spending that fell just short of success. A four year cycle of austerity would change that calculus.

Anyway, I also refuse to give a kid a letter grade on a subject who attempted to seize power and throw out the Constitution for the sake of remaining in office. We were on the edge of no longer being a representative Republic, and still teetering on the edge. That kid doesn't get a report card. He gets jail time.
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canpakes
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Re: Did Trump "Drain" the swamp?

Post by canpakes »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:58 pm
Anyway, I also refuse to give a kid a letter grade on a subject who attempted to seize power and throw out the Constitution for the sake of remaining in office.

And that’s even before the problem of not having defined the criteria that determines the ‘grade’.
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Re: Did Trump "Drain" the swamp?

Post by honorentheos »

canpakes wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:14 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:58 pm
Anyway, I also refuse to give a kid a letter grade on a subject who attempted to seize power and throw out the Constitution for the sake of remaining in office.

And that’s even before the problem of not having defined the criteria that determines the ‘grade’.
I don't know. Trying to figure out how to grade a kid setting fire to the school seems to be missing something critical.

Trump was garbage for the long term economy. He was very involved in matters that affected it, favoring short term results over long term health. Day trader, corporate raider, whatever analogy works to convey his mindset wasn't about the fundamentals. But he cared A LOT about the numbers and short term returns and had his fingers in it all the time.
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Re: Did Trump "Drain" the swamp?

Post by Res Ipsa »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:58 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:55 am


No. We’re part of a global economy. The President of the US doesn’t control the basic forces that result in the business cycle. No matter how well the US handles the Pandemic, the US economy is going to be affected by how the Pandemic affects other countries. If China locks down geographical areas completely, then US companies that depend on Chinese parts will be short of goods to supply, resulting in higher prices, The US President has no ability to set COVID policy in China.

Russia’s war against Ukraine will reduce global supplies of wheat. Normally, India could pick up the slack, But an early and unexpected heat wave has damaged Indias wheat crop. Again, the US President has no control over the war or weather in India.

The global economy can go to hell and there’s nothing the US President can do about it. I assess the President’s performance on the economy based on decisions he makes in response to forces he can’t control. Obama inherited an economy that was in the crappier, and I give him high marks for pushing stimulus packages and helping some large companies stay in business, preserving good American jobs. The crash itself was beyond his control, so it’s silly to claim it was his fault. I’d give him an A for his economic policy.

Trump inherited a fairly decent recovery and has the good sense not to mess with it. Yes, he did some things that contributed to inflation we are seeing now, including choking off the supply of workers. That sounds like B material to me. I think staying out of the way off the recovery was the most important thing he did, which is why I gave him B.
I don't know that he got out of the way, though. For example, the trade wars were a drag on multiple industries and created uncertainty.

I also tend to believe our two party system functions like a pendulum, where the swing between party goals isn't necessarily immediately responsive but does tend to correct against excesses. Trump stepped in at a point when the swing was towards seeing the rhetoric of Paul Ryan-types have their day to cut away at government spending which Trump hijacked and pushed even more spending instead while cutting taxes and the ability to pay for that spending.

in my opinion, that spending has opportunity costs when looked at over time as the burden of that debt isn't going away but the programs and services it paid for have no actual benefits. He effectively stole a cycle of higher government spending and prevented on of restriction. We are paying for some of the now. Biden's BBB plan is likely a casualty of sentiment against spending that fell just short of success. A four year cycle of austerity would change that calculus.

Anyway, I also refuse to give a kid a letter grade on a subject who attempted to seize power and throw out the Constitution for the sake of remaining in office. We were on the edge of no longer being a representative Republic, and still teetering on the edge. That kid doesn't get a report card. He gets jail time.
I don’t know that his whole trade policy wasn’t more bluster than teeth. It didn’t appear to affect the recovery. And, as a tariff is functionally a tax, having already identified the tax cut as bad policy, it feels odd to me to criticize a tax increase.

As to your last point, I agree that his post election actions more than outweigh whatever he may have done a good job at. It is disqualifying in and of itself because it undermined the foundations of our political system. But I don’t think that fact makes it unreasonable to talk about other aspects of how he did the job.
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