Did Trump "Drain" the swamp?

[Markk]

...so we have you and Honor saying that because of one thing, anything he did good should not be recognized, or basically erased.

That "one thing" was an attempt to change the United States of America from a nation ruled by laws with elected representatives to a new authoritarian system of government that disregarded the Constitution and rule of law.

That's a bit like saying a man who paid to have his wife murdered should get some credit for taking the garbage out once. Attempted murder is just one thing, right?

It's mind-blowing that you would get behind him. He tried to overthrow the Constitution. How is it Republicans can't look around at the rest of the party and decide, "Yeah, we can do without that guy"?

Many don’t want him, I hope he doesn’t run again. Go back and read what I wrote about him when he won the GOP ticket…5 years ago.

The problem is that we don’t have much of a choice. Biden is crapping on the constitution everyday in ignoring the border crisis, it is a clear dereliction of duty…why do you stand for that?

Biden is a joke, you know it but will never admit it…just as Trump was…so all we have is hope, that they do some good things, and hopefully will not take us down with their incompetence. The founding father were brilliant in my opinion with the checks and balances, but the way it is going they are getting polluted.

[Res Ipsa]

You can, but you’d be ignoring the scientific facts that actually enabled many others to produce vaccines in a similar timeframe.

And they too, did a great job…correct?

Again, too simplistic. Lots of time and money was spent trying to develop vaccines for other coronavirus without success. Does that mean those folks did a terrible job? Part of the reason the period for development of the COVID vaccines was so short was that researchers built on the knowledge and experience provided by those earlier unsuccessful efforts. So maybe the early failed efforts was a great job and not a terrible job.

The degree to which a virus of affected by vaccination varies widely from virus to virus. The length of time it took to develop an effective vaccine against Ebola has nothing to do with “doing a great job.” Likewise, the fact that efforts to develop a vaccination against HIV has yet to succeed says nothing about whether researchers have done a great job or a terrible job. So, there is a fair amount of luck involved in the characteristics of the virus itself.

And we took a huge leap of faith in using a technique that has never been used to make a vaccine before. That was a huge gamble (that I agree was worth talking), so there was a fair amount of luck in the fact that it worked at all. Lots of things that should work in theory don’t work in practice for all sorts of reasons.

I don’t know what the quality of work that any individual did actual is. I’d like to think that the folks at Moderna and Pfizer and all the other institutions busted their assess and did there very best to deliver safe and effective vaccines as quickly as they could. The speed at which they developed the vaccines that they did was, in my opinion, a great result that for which I am grateful. At the same time, I recognize (as I suspect the scientists themselves would) that their success was due to some combination of very hard work, really smart people, other people smart enough to listen to the really smart people, decades of earlier research by others, and a fair amount of luck. It’s what problem solving looks like when the scientific method works as intended.

Now, if you would translate all of that into “great job,” then I agree. Even so, we don’t know the end of the story with these vaccines and this virus. I’ve had four doses of a new vaccine using a brand new technique against a newly emergent virus that we know very little about. If people had done a “greater job”, would I have received one dose that provides me with sterilizing immunity? I dunno.

I have absolutely zero knowledge about what was actually possible in terms of a COVID Vaccine as of the time the virus was discovered, so I’ve got no benchmark against which to measure “great job.” I’m very happy and grateful that I haven’t been killed or harmed by COVID or a vaccine, so I’m happy and grateful to whoever helped make it happen. And, if it makes you feel any better, as Warp Speed required the president’s approval, I’m grateful to him for approving it. I think that approving that program was the right decision, and I’m glad he made it. Just as I’m grateful to everyone involved in the entire field of vaccine research and development for enabling today’s scientists who were in a position to do what they did.

[Markk]

Res wrote…I have absolutely zero knowledge about what was actually possible in terms of a COVID Vaccine as of the time the virus was discovered, so I’ve got no benchmark against which to measure “great job.”

Then you did not listen to Collins … he stated normally vaccines take up to 5 years, we had it in 11 months. Even Biden said that he did a good job


https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/21/politics ... index.html

[canpakes]

Res wrote…I have absolutely zero knowledge about what was actually possible in terms of a COVID Vaccine as of the time the virus was discovered, so I’ve got no benchmark against which to measure “great job.”

Then you did not listen to Collins … he stated normally vaccines take up to 5 years, we had it in 11 months. Even Biden said that he did a good job

Indeed; here’s Ivanka helping to develop the vaccine:



Just kidding. She’s not really working on the vaccine in that photo.

Even after considering that the first company to the table with a vaccine wasn’t part of Warp Speed’s development program, it would be good of folks to acknowledge that there were several factors in play that led to a faster-than-typical development. These are outlined in the excerpt from the article linked below. It’s nice that we (the US) kicked in some serious money and talent, but the effort was dependent upon worldwide cooperation.

At least give some credit to the folks who created and coordinated the Warp Speed program with those global partners, instead of trying to convince folks that Trump - between cheeseburgers and watching episodes of Fox and Friends - did much more than nod his head and agree with the plans created by others. We can thank him for that much.

Other coronaviruses

Researchers were not starting from scratch when they learned about SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19.

SARS-CoV-2 is a member of the coronavirus family. According to the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious DiseasesTrusted Source, there are hundreds of coronaviruses. These include four that can cause the common cold, as well as the coronaviruses that sparked the SARS, or severe acute respiratory syndrome, epidemic in 2002 and the emergence of MERS, or Middle East respiratory syndrome, in 2012.

Dr. Eric J. Yager, an associate professor of microbiology at Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences in Albany, NY, told MNT that scientists have been studying coronaviruses for more than 50 years. This meant that scientists had existing data on the structure, genome, and life cycle of this type of virus.

Dr. Yager explained, “Research on these viruses established the importance of the viral spike (S) protein in viral attachment, fusion, and entry, and [it] identified the S proteins as a target for the development of antibody therapies and vaccines.” He continued:

“Early efforts by scientists at Oxford University to create an adenovirus-based vaccine against MERS provided the necessary experimental experience and groundwork to develop an adenovirus vaccine for COVID-19.”

Worldwide collaboration

Under normal circumstances, making a vaccine can take up to 10–15 years. This is because of the complexity of vaccine development.

Dr. Michael Parry, the chair of infectious diseases at Stamford Health in Stamford, CT, told MNT that vaccines train our immune system to remember an infectious agent without us having to contract it.

“Traditionally, they have contained weakened or inactivated parts of a particular virus (antigen) to trigger an immune response within the body. These vaccines will prompt the immune system to respond, much as it would have on its first reaction to the actual pathogen.”

However, amid a global pandemic, time was a luxury the world could not afford. Researchers quickly mobilized to share their coronavirus data with other scientists.

Dr. Yager said that thanks to advances in genomic sequencing, researchers successfully uncovered the viral sequence of SARS-CoV-2 in January 2020 — roughly 10 days after the first reported pneumonia cases in Wuhan, China. The ability to fast-track research and clinical trials was a direct result of this worldwide cooperation.

Funding for COVID-19 vaccine research

Vaccine research is costly. In 2018, a study in The Lancet Global HealthTrusted Source estimated the cost of early development and initial clinical safety trials for a typical vaccine to be in the range of $31–68 million. Large scale trials to determine the efficacy of a vaccine candidate would add to these figures.

In an accelerated timetable with a new coronavirus, this cost might be higher. For this reason, funding from sources ranging from the government to the private sector was critical in making COVID-19 vaccines.

In the United States, Operation Warp Speed (OWS) partnered with multiple institutions, including the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), to develop, manufacture, and distribute 300 million doses by early 2021.

“By providing resources and assuming the financial risk, OWS allows companies to produce and stockpile vaccine doses even before the company knows if the vaccine is going to work,” said Dr. Yager.

“Also, by investing in multiple companies and vaccine platforms at once, OWS increased the odds of having a vaccine, or vaccines, available by the beginning of 2021,” he added.

The European Commission has also funded several vaccine candidates and worked with others in pledging $8 billion for COVID-19 research.

The United Kingdom government’s Vaccine Taskforce has also been a significant contributor to a wide variety of vaccine research. Recipients of this funding helped develop the AstraZeneca vaccine. The designers of this vaccine were the first to publish peer reviewed efficacy results from phase 3 trials.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... onaviruses

[Res Ipsa]

Res wrote…I have absolutely zero knowledge about what was actually possible in terms of a COVID Vaccine as of the time the virus was discovered, so I’ve got no benchmark against which to measure “great job.”

Then you did not listen to Collins … he stated normally vaccines take up to 5 years, we had it in 11 months. Even Biden said that he did a good job


https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/21/politics ... index.html

I didn’t make a claim about “normal.” The time varies widely depending on the virus. We can crank out a vaccine for a new flu strain in about a year. We’ve never been able to figure out a vaccine for HIV. There is a significant difference between “normal,” which is some kind of average based on past experience, and possible, which depends on the nature of the virus, the availability of existing research, and the state of technology. I’m not saying that I think the people who produced the vaccines did a bad job. I’m just being honest about what I don’t know. Just as an example, was it possible to create a sterilizing vaccine if more time has been taken to explore other options? I have no freaking idea. If I can’t compare what was done with what could have been done, how can I tell whether a “great job” was done.

Biden gets to express his opinions how he chooses. As you consider him a senile, doddering, drooler, it’s a little weird of you to now suggest that I should parrot his opinion.

If insisting that I express my opinions in some arbitrary form that you dictate, you aren’t looking for common ground. Note that at no point in this discussion have I tried to dictate to you the form in which you should express your opinions. You get to have your opinions and express them in the manner of your choice. If we can’t have at least that as common ground, then the whole exercise is kind of pointless.

[honorentheos]

That "one thing" was an attempt to change the United States of America from a nation ruled by laws with elected representatives to a new authoritarian system of government that disregarded the Constitution and rule of law.

That's a bit like saying a man who paid to have his wife murdered should get some credit for taking the garbage out once. Attempted murder is just one thing, right?

It's mind-blowing that you would get behind him. He tried to overthrow the Constitution. How is it Republicans can't look around at the rest of the party and decide, "Yeah, we can do without that guy"?

... Biden is crapping on the constitution everyday in ignoring the border crisis, it is a clear dereliction of duty…why do you stand for that?

You don't know what Constitutional law is, that's where I stand on the statements above.

Trump trying to steal the election isn't precedented. When Nixon tried to steal information from the DNC he was trying to cheat. But he didn't try to block the outcome of an election. The gap between Nixon and Trump isn't measurable as they aren't in the same class. Yet forty-some years ago Republicans didn't stand for "their guy" because that's just "one thing". There was a line, and Nixon had crossed it.

I cannot fathom the absolute brokenness of the mind that tries to put anything any President from either party has done in the last sixty years in the same box as what Trump did in attempting to prevent the results of the 2020 election from being recognized.

I don't care if you don't like the guy. If you can't see what he did as essentially treason, you are warped. Straight up, there is no honest comparison.

[honorentheos]

That "one thing" was an attempt to change the United States of America from a nation ruled by laws with elected representatives to a new authoritarian system of government that disregarded the Constitution and rule of law.

This is the correct answer.

Even if DT unilaterally brought economic prosperity that the world had never seen, his attempts to become dictator that ranged from everything from unprecedented executive orders to trying to steal the election, to firing or driving out as many people possible in government and replacing with unqualified yes-people, would undermine anything else positive. The White House being run by his family. Russia, Venezuela, China; a lot of authoritarian hell-holes out there have been economically prosperous at one time or another for a brief time. Ignoring the pandemic, something he could help with and initially did sorta try to help with, instead of going all-in on how to retain power for himself, undercut anything that could remotely be considered good. Trump is a classic personality cult on the road to a dictatorship. "power for the few in the name of the many". That's your guy.

As it stands, Trump wasn't "great for the economy"; but then again, a president's role isn't to be CEO of the American economy and make it great. We live in a market system where free markets make the economy great, not the dictates of government leaders. What the single leader and government can do, is help in those areas where markets are powerless, things like, oh, pandemics. Militaries --- those aspects of society where the rule of markets doesn't hold. That is, agents acting in their own self-interest produce sub-optimal outcomes for the whole as opposed to optimizing the outcome for the whole.

I can see why people don't get this. If I hadn't been forced to take an intro poli-sci class at BYU it never would have been on my radar either. So talking to my right-wing friend, he's made plenty of money in his career but barely graduated high school. He doesn't know what balance of powers means nor does he care. It's an easy concept that I also recall from 10th grade history, but barely. When the court cases were going to the Supreme Court over the election, my friend said he hoped they would overturn it. His reasoning? There could have been fraud, so if there's any possibility at all it's 50-50 in his mind, and then Trump filled 2 vacancies and so those two people owed him a favor. That's his business experience. He worked a lot with the city and if you help somebody out they've got to help you out. Sure, that didn't happen this time, but what's scary is that this is increasingly becoming what "the people" are hoping for. And it's all in the name of freedom, which is even weirder.

Well said.

[Father Francis]

Trump trying to steal the election isn't precedented. When Nixon tried to steal information from the DNC he was trying to cheat. But he didn't try to block the outcome of an election. The gap between Nixon and Trump isn't measurable as they aren't in the same class. Yet forty-some years ago Republicans didn't stand for "their guy" because that's just "one thing". There was a line, and Nixon had crossed it.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.

Nixon did some good things, even historic things. His visit to China would have been his legacy if it weren't for Watergate.

He did far better things than Trump and I'd suggest Watergate wasn't quite as bad as the big lie. I'd also say he still got what he deserved as far as history remembers him.

The funny thing is, Trump's supporters still cling to him and waive his flags around like he's the new messiah...

[Markk]

... Biden is crapping on the constitution everyday in ignoring the border crisis, it is a clear dereliction of duty…why do you stand for that?

You don't know what Constitutional law is, that's where I stand on the statements above.

Trump trying to steal the election isn't precedented. When Nixon tried to steal information from the DNC he was trying to cheat. But he didn't try to block the outcome of an election. The gap between Nixon and Trump isn't measurable as they aren't in the same class. Yet forty-some years ago Republicans didn't stand for "their guy" because that's just "one thing". There was a line, and Nixon had crossed it.

I cannot fathom the absolute brokenness of the mind that tries to put anything any President from either party has done in the last sixty years in the same box as what Trump did in attempting to prevent the results of the 2020 election from being recognized.

I don't care if you don't like the guy. If you can't see what he did as essentially treason, you are warped. Straight up, there is no honest comparison.

Kennedy did steal an election from Kennedy by most accounts…and Hillary was trying really hard, but even her cheating couldn’t get her a win.

Trump is being investigated for what he did or did not do, and we will see where it falls. If you can’t see what Biden is not doing on the order, is essentially treason…

[canpakes]

Kennedy did steal an election from Kennedy by most accounts…and Hillary was trying really hard, but even her cheating couldn’t get her a win.

Can you give me some examples of cheating from both 2016 and 2020?