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canpakes
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Re: Moved: THISandThat

Post by canpakes »

Elizabeth wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 11:57 pm
Poland was a part of Germany, inhabited by Germans and illegally taken from Germany in World War 1.. which was a disgrace to mankind.
World War 11 was declared and begun by Britain, shamefully bringing in her Commonwealth into what was none of their business and causing countless unneeded suffering and destruction.
As a war widow myself I well know the depravities of war.

I invite others to read the basic history of Poland rather than to trust inaccurate assertions by random folks on the Internet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland

And, World War 11 is still 9 world wars away.
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Re: Moved: THISandThat

Post by Dr Exiled »

canpakes wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:11 am
Elizabeth wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 11:57 pm
Poland was a part of Germany, inhabited by Germans and illegally taken from Germany in World War 1.. which was a disgrace to mankind.
World War 11 was declared and begun by Britain, shamefully bringing in her Commonwealth into what was none of their business and causing countless unneeded suffering and destruction.
As a war widow myself I well know the depravities of war.

I invite others to read the basic history of Poland rather than to trust inaccurate assertions by random folks on the Internet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland

And, World War 11 is still 9 world wars away.
Is wikipedia a good source? Could you give others? History is written by the conquerors and so is there a people's history of Poland?
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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canpakes
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Re: Moved: THISandThat

Post by canpakes »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:15 am
canpakes wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:11 am



I invite others to read the basic history of Poland rather than to trust inaccurate assertions by random folks on the Internet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland

And, World War 11 is still 9 world wars away.
Is wikipedia a good source? Could you give others? History is written by the conquerors and so is there a people's history of Poland?

To be fair, I did label it a basic history for a reason. : )

Your comment could be applied to just about any source. Likewise, an alternative history can be conjured by the conquered and taught to their own, as is necessary to soothe their pride and/or ego.

Perhaps a good place to begin one’s search into Polish history would be here -

https://polishhistory.pl/about/
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Moved: THISandThat

Post by Res Ipsa »

honorentheos wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 12:18 am
If the links open onto a white supremacist website they aren't safe for work. I don't think it could be any more clear that the post in question should be moved.

It's not about speech. It's about having a coherent board organization with consistent guidelines as to what to expect in a given forum. Internet risk management makes this a no brainer, too.
I understand your points Honor. We’re discussing the NSFW issue. In terms of security, the site doesn’t state or imply that SSP is “safer” in terms of security than any other portion of the site. And isn’t it easy in BBcode to change the appearance of the link to anything? I do it frequently so that the link is part of my text. So how would we tell by what the link looks like whether it is malicious.

If we need to change how we are doing things for security reasons, I’m all in favor. But we need to do it in a consistent way.
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honorentheos
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Re: Moved: THISandThat

Post by honorentheos »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:26 am
honorentheos wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 12:18 am
If the links open onto a white supremacist website they aren't safe for work. I don't think it could be any more clear that the post in question should be moved.

It's not about speech. It's about having a coherent board organization with consistent guidelines as to what to expect in a given forum. Internet risk management makes this a no brainer, too.
I understand your points Honor. We’re discussing the NSFW issue. In terms of security, the site doesn’t state or imply that SSP is “safer” in terms of security than any other portion of the site. And isn’t it easy in BBcode to change the appearance of the link to anything? I do it frequently so that the link is part of my text. So how would we tell by what the link looks like whether it is malicious.

If we need to change how we are doing things for security reasons, I’m all in favor. But we need to do it in a consistent way.
First, thank you.

I think whatever else is discussed, there is a some level of difference in security if we at minimum accept NSFW links belong in one forum but not others.

As to links, there's a difference between doing what I believe you suggest above and posting shortened links that are not clear as to their destinations.

For example, both of these are originally directed to your post above:

You mean like this link to your post?

Or this one that's been ran through a link shortener?

You can check the link by hovering over it. The unabbreviated link gives the full address of where it is taking you so you have degree of knowledge of what to expect or how likely the site is to be a scam. The second? Well...

But seriously, who posts a wall of links for legitimate purposes?
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Gadianton
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Re: Moved: THISandThat

Post by Gadianton »

Res wrote:Which rule do you think embodies the spirit of content based speech restrictions.

I did battle with Smokey, a holocaust denier and promoter of Christian Identity anti-semitism for what seemed like weeks. I do not recall any moderator intervention, except when I objected to their posting of Christian Identity garbage on the Mormon side of the board. I'll review the mod forum and (sigh) the Smokey posting, but I don't recall any extra stringent moderation.
You're a better man than I am, Res, there is no question there.

I also didn't explain myself very well. Ultimately, the NSFW is the immediate issue and I see the call has been made. Thank you.

There is a substantial difference between our previous visitor and our new friend. Our previous visitor was a fifth-rate philosophizer, but a philosophizer nonetheless and made arguments for his positions. Our new friend so far seems to have our board confused with Pinterest and has taken on the mantra of the LDS missionary: "I am here to teach, not to be taught". And so, our new friend preaches, pins pictures and links, and avoids the point of the board entirely, which is to discuss. Fine, I mean, there is no rule that says you actually must discuss things here, we had a guy for years just copy and paste chapters of the Bible into a thread in Celestial. But as the new friend starts pushing boundaries and making the site look like a hate-site, Threads with increasing levels of Nazi content without any discussion to contextualize to a passerby, it starts becoming a problem, in my view.

If a person must come here to discuss their neo-Nazi views, and if we're to let them, I think you're right that such discussions technically can happen. But here's the thing. People on all sides can and are angry at times. People promoting Nazism take that anger up a notch or two. It's very unlikely that a pro-Nazi person is going to take the inevitable gang-up with grace. They have a tactical advantage in the sense that If they win the argument (which they won't, here) they win, but if they lose the argument, they also win because they are publicizing and drawing attention to some of the most offensive material imaginable. Think about A-Mike, he'll sometimes discuss to a point legitimately, then get mad and post memes of guns and other stupid crap that he thinks is offensive in order to get back at the people he disagrees with. Well, most of that stuff we can let go it's just the vast quantities of it that become the problem. Now think of our previous visitor, were those fifth-rate discourses really meant as discussion, or were they meant as a cover to increase the output of anti-Semitic memes? Either he originally had good intentions and discussed in good faith, got frustrated and retaliated by increasing the anti-Semitic memes, or he faux-discussed just as a cover so that he could drop as much of his hate content before the inevitable ban? Either way, the end result was pretty well obvious from the beginning.

But our new friend hasn't even made the effort to discuss or provide faux-discussion as a cover. It's just ramping up the hate content slowly and see where we draw the line. I think it's pointless to let that happen. If our new friend makes a huge effort to communicate her point of view and can maintain a pro-Nazi discussion as a model forum participant, with curtesy to other forum members and careful argumentation, then maybe that should be allowed. It's ultimately up to you three and Shades. It's just extraordinarily unlikely to happen.
honorentheos
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Re: Moved: THISandThat

Post by honorentheos »

honorentheos wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 3:55 am

Or this one that's been ran through a link shortener?
To the point of board security and abbreviated links, someone clicking the link above is taken to a website where, depending on random chance, they are either directed to the post above mine authored by Res Ipsa just the same as the full address link, or they are sent to YouTube to enjoy the sweet melodious baritone that is Rick Astley. Depending on what happened I'm guessing some people on the board rolled their eyes over being rickrolled like it was 2011 or gave a meh when it ended up being a link as described. Absent talking about it, who would know there was anything involved but either a boring post or a link to a Res Ipsa post? Either way, the first stop is a layover destination that the voyager doesn't even know they passed through.

Putting up a wall of such links is spam. Such a post should be treated as such no matter who posts it because there is no safe way to navigate the post as presented other than trust.

edit: my phone apparently thinks Ipsa should be shouted.
Last edited by honorentheos on Wed May 04, 2022 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Moved: THISandThat

Post by Res Ipsa »

Gadianton wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 4:21 am
Res wrote:Which rule do you think embodies the spirit of content based speech restrictions.

I did battle with Smokey, a holocaust denier and promoter of Christian Identity anti-semitism for what seemed like weeks. I do not recall any moderator intervention, except when I objected to their posting of Christian Identity garbage on the Mormon side of the board. I'll review the mod forum and (sigh) the Smokey posting, but I don't recall any extra stringent moderation.
You're a better man than I am, Res, there is no question there.

I also didn't explain myself very well. Ultimately, the NSFW is the immediate issue and I see the call has been made. Thank you.

There is a substantial difference between our previous visitor and our new friend. Our previous visitor was a fifth-rate philosophizer, but a philosophizer nonetheless and made arguments for his positions. Our new friend so far seems to have our board confused with Pinterest and has taken on the mantra of the LDS missionary: "I am here to teach, not to be taught". And so, our new friend preaches, pins pictures and links, and avoids the point of the board entirely, which is to discuss. Fine, I mean, there is no rule that says you actually must discuss things here, we had a guy for years just copy and paste chapters of the Bible into a thread in Celestial. But as the new friend starts pushing boundaries and making the site look like a hate-site, Threads with increasing levels of Nazi content without any discussion to contextualize to a passerby, it starts becoming a problem, in my view.

If a person must come here to discuss their neo-Nazi views, and if we're to let them, I think you're right that such discussions technically can happen. But here's the thing. People on all sides can and are angry at times. People promoting Nazism take that anger up a notch or two. It's very unlikely that a pro-Nazi person is going to take the inevitable gang-up with grace. They have a tactical advantage in the sense that If they win the argument (which they won't, here) they win, but if they lose the argument, they also win because they are publicizing and drawing attention to some of the most offensive material imaginable. Think about A-Mike, he'll sometimes discuss to a point legitimately, then get mad and post memes of guns and other stupid crap that he thinks is offensive in order to get back at the people he disagrees with. Well, most of that stuff we can let go it's just the vast quantities of it that become the problem. Now think of our previous visitor, were those fifth-rate discourses really meant as discussion, or were they meant as a cover to increase the output of anti-Semitic memes? Either he originally had good intentions and discussed in good faith, got frustrated and retaliated by increasing the anti-Semitic memes, or he faux-discussed just as a cover so that he could drop as much of his hate content before the inevitable ban? Either way, the end result was pretty well obvious from the beginning.

But our new friend hasn't even made the effort to discuss or provide faux-discussion as a cover. It's just ramping up the hate content slowly and see where we draw the line. I think it's pointless to let that happen. If our new friend makes a huge effort to communicate her point of view and can maintain a pro-Nazi discussion as a model forum participant, with curtesy to other forum members and careful argumentation, then maybe that should be allowed. It's ultimately up to you three and Shades. It's just extraordinarily unlikely to happen.
I understand, but I do my best to try and stay out of Minority Report territory. You may be correct about what is likely to happen, but I don't think it's consistent with the approach here to classify and react to a new poster on the basis of one post. I'm comfortable that moving the post to Prison based on NSFW was the right call. I'm also comfortable with giving her time and space to decide whether and how to continue posting here. Lots of people arrive here with an agenda of some kind. I think it's reasonable to give them time to see if they will settle in.
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Gadianton
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Re: Moved: THISandThat

Post by Gadianton »

h wrote:To the point of board security and abbreviated links
Right, that's a huge problem. Obviously, when someone uses link shortening to mask the url and especially without any commentary it's to send people unaware to a bad place.

of course I didn't click on it. I assume PG braced himself and took one for the team. People are in different places with their knowledge of the web and some will walk into that stuff not knowing what's up.
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Re: Moved: THISandThat

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