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Re: Moved: THISandThat

Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 1:59 am
by Dr. Shades
Elizabeth wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 9:42 pm
We were all, as mature Spirits, given the choice and opportunity to come to this Earth to occupy a mortal body in order to undertake our mortal trial as a part of our Eternal progression.
What's your opinion of people who would abort others' mortal trials, like Adolf Hitler?

Re: Moved: THISandThat

Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 2:13 am
by Elizabeth
My opinion is that Adolf Hitler and his followers have been misrepresented and falsely accused.
All countries have had prisoners of war, but the Japanese were the evil ones who tortured their prisoners, not the Germans.
Wars have always been a disaster and all should not have occurred.

Re: Moved: THISandThat

Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 3:35 am
by canpakes
Elizabeth wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 2:13 am
My opinion is that Adolf Hitler and his followers have been misrepresented and falsely accused.

Falsely accused of what, in particular?

Re: Moved: THISandThat

Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 8:43 am
by Dr. Shades
canpakes wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 3:35 am
Elizabeth wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 2:13 am
My opinion is that Adolf Hitler and his followers have been misrepresented and falsely accused.
Falsely accused of what, in particular?
And in what way were they misrepresented?

Re: Moved: THISandThat

Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 8:20 pm
by Elizabeth
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is here to lead us to Jesus Christ. That is its mission. Sacrament meeting, Sunday School, and Seminary are all there to help us become better disciples of Jesus Christ and make us more like Him.

Unfortunately, there are those among us who think The Church has a different purpose. I don’t fault them for this. It is just a misplaced expectation, and we all have many of those. The misplaced expectation is that The Church is there to be a college level history class. Yes, it is true that we often use history to teach Gospel topics. Most scriptures and Sunday School lessons contain stories of people and their interactions with the Divine. But the point of the stories is typically what you spiritually learn, and not the detailed history.

Some individuals, who have decided to leave the Church, tell me it is because they believe the Church has betrayed them. It has withheld information and lied to them. They go on to use an example such as Joseph Smith using a seer stone and a hat as part of the translation process and the Church didn’t tell them. They are concerned that they have been a member for many years and never heard this. The only explanation they can fathom is that the Church lied and hid this from them. The feelings of betrayal are real, but there is a problem with this narrative.

Let’s use this specific concern as a broad example of these kinds of "hidden-history" questions. Joseph Smith himself didn’t describe the translation process other than to say it was through the gift and power of God. From eyewitnesses to the translation process we know that Joseph probably used more than one method. While it may be the 'hat method' wasn’t taught in Sunday School, as we already discussed, teaching history isn’t really the purpose of Sunday School.

But where did the Church hide the idea of seer stones and a hat? It had to be somewhere because people are finding out about it. Who leaked it? What secret archive did it come from? What happened to the whistle blower?
One book, which is often referenced by the former Latter-day Saint community, claims the information can be found "in an obscure 1992 talk given by Elder Russell M. Nelson." WOW! Russell M. Nelson leaked it! And they still made him president? Where can that "obscure 1992 talk" be found? Who did he leak it to? Well, it turns out that "obscure 1992 talk" can be found in the July 1993 Ensign. Who knew that the Church magazine department was in on the conspiracy! If you don’t keep old Ensign magazines around the house, you can still read this "obscure 1992 talk" on the Church’s website. Is the Webmaster in on this conspiracy too? But there is more. That wasn’t the earliest leak! You can also find it in a September 1977 Ensign article by Richard Lloyd Anderson. Additionally, there is even a description of the seer stone in the September 1977 Friend, the Church magazine for children.
When I have brought this up before, I have been accused of victim blaming and gaslighting. I’m not trying to do that. I am not blaming anyone. But I am pointing out that this history is not hidden. I only gave a few of many references. There are history associations, publications, and independent researchers that have talked about this for years. We have a FAIR Conference talk on it, and you can watch the video that was put out by the Church History Department.

I don’t blame my accounting students for not understanding the chemical processes of photosynthesis. Neither do I blame the biology students for not understanding accounting. It is simply a matter of what area of study they have chosen to emphasize.

We, as a Church, have decided to emphasize studying how to become more like Jesus Christ. The opportunity is there for anyone to also study Church history in greater detail, and the Church is continually working to make that task easier."


Scott Gordon
President, FAIR

Re: Moved: THISandThat

Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 11:21 pm
by Atlanticmike
Elizabeth wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 8:20 pm
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is here to lead us to Jesus Christ. That is its mission. Sacrament meeting, Sunday School, and Seminary are all there to help us become better disciples of Jesus Christ and make us more like Him.

Unfortunately, there are those among us who think The Church has a different purpose. I don’t fault them for this. It is just a misplaced expectation, and we all have many of those. The misplaced expectation is that The Church is there to be a college level history class. Yes, it is true that we often use history to teach Gospel topics. Most scriptures and Sunday School lessons contain stories of people and their interactions with the Divine. But the point of the stories is typically what you spiritually learn, and not the detailed history.

Some individuals, who have decided to leave the Church, tell me it is because they believe the Church has betrayed them. It has withheld information and lied to them. They go on to use an example such as Joseph Smith using a seer stone and a hat as part of the translation process and the Church didn’t tell them. They are concerned that they have been a member for many years and never heard this. The only explanation they can fathom is that the Church lied and hid this from them. The feelings of betrayal are real, but there is a problem with this narrative.

Let’s use this specific concern as a broad example of these kinds of "hidden-history" questions. Joseph Smith himself didn’t describe the translation process other than to say it was through the gift and power of God. From eyewitnesses to the translation process we know that Joseph probably used more than one method. While it may be the 'hat method' wasn’t taught in Sunday School, as we already discussed, teaching history isn’t really the purpose of Sunday School.

But where did the Church hide the idea of seer stones and a hat? It had to be somewhere because people are finding out about it. Who leaked it? What secret archive did it come from? What happened to the whistle blower?
One book, which is often referenced by the former Latter-day Saint community, claims the information can be found "in an obscure 1992 talk given by Elder Russell M. Nelson." WOW! Russell M. Nelson leaked it! And they still made him president? Where can that "obscure 1992 talk" be found? Who did he leak it to? Well, it turns out that "obscure 1992 talk" can be found in the July 1993 Ensign. Who knew that the Church magazine department was in on the conspiracy! If you don’t keep old Ensign magazines around the house, you can still read this "obscure 1992 talk" on the Church’s website. Is the Webmaster in on this conspiracy too? But there is more. That wasn’t the earliest leak! You can also find it in a September 1977 Ensign article by Richard Lloyd Anderson. Additionally, there is even a description of the seer stone in the September 1977 Friend, the Church magazine for children.
When I have brought this up before, I have been accused of victim blaming and gaslighting. I’m not trying to do that. I am not blaming anyone. But I am pointing out that this history is not hidden. I only gave a few of many references. There are history associations, publications, and independent researchers that have talked about this for years. We have a FAIR Conference talk on it, and you can watch the video that was put out by the Church History Department.

I don’t blame my accounting students for not understanding the chemical processes of photosynthesis. Neither do I blame the biology students for not understanding accounting. It is simply a matter of what area of study they have chosen to emphasize.

We, as a Church, have decided to emphasize studying how to become more like Jesus Christ. The opportunity is there for anyone to also study Church history in greater detail, and the Church is continually working to make that task easier."


Scott Gordon
President, FAIR
👍👍👍👍👍

Re: Moved: THISandThat

Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 4:47 am
by Moksha
Elizabeth wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 8:20 pm
But where did the Church hide the idea of seer stones and a hat? It had to be somewhere because people are finding out about it. Who leaked it? What secret archive did it come from? What happened to the whistleblowers?
Early Mormons kept journals. They had not yet received further light and knowledge to keep things hidden. A Correlations Committee had not yet emerged out of Mordor to bring them all and bind them.

Re: Moved: THISandThat

Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 1:59 pm
by Gadianton
Dr. Shades,

Can you let us know if that message from Scott Gordon answered your question about the way in which Adolf Hitler and his followers have been falsely accused?

Re: Moved: THISandThat

Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 2:33 am
by Elizabeth
Image

Re: Moved: THISandThat

Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 7:02 am
by Dr. Shades
Gadianton wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 1:59 pm
Dr. Shades,

Can you let us know if that message from Scott Gordon answered your question about the way in which Adolf Hitler and his followers have been falsely accused?
Yes, I can. It didn't, not at all.