State of the Pandemic

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drumdude
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Re: State of the Pandemic

Post by drumdude »

Vēritās wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:42 am
You're exaggerating and misrepresenting the science. Current vaccines still provide the best protection available even for the current variants.
You're not understanding the difference between prophylactic and treatment.

Rabies vaccine is a perfect prophylactic against rabies. But once you have rabies the vaccine does nothing to treat it. COVID vaccine works the exact same way. And unlike the rabies vaccine, the current variants break through the COVID vaccine. Most breakthrough infections are mild (thanks to the vaccine) but not all of them are.
Res Ipsa
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Re: State of the Pandemic

Post by Res Ipsa »

drumdude wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:50 pm
Vēritās wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:42 am
You're exaggerating and misrepresenting the science. Current vaccines still provide the best protection available even for the current variants.
You're not understanding the difference between prophylactic and treatment.
In this context, why do you think the distinction is relevant?
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drumdude
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Re: State of the Pandemic

Post by drumdude »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:52 pm
drumdude wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:50 pm


You're not understanding the difference between prophylactic and treatment.
In this context, why do you think the distinction is relevant?
I expanded above. Once you have an active COVID infection, you need treatment. The COVID vaccine is not a treatment. Ivermectin, steroids, and Paxlovid are COVID treatments. (Ivermectin has little to no evidence it is an effective treatment)

Saying "Moderna beats Ivermectin" is like saying "Apples beat oranges." It's a category error. They are two different use cases.

The vaccine PLUS Paxlovid works well because you have a prophylaxis combined with a treatment.
drumdude
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Re: State of the Pandemic

Post by drumdude »

Moreover, if you don't understand the difference between vaccine and treatment, you will continue to believe that ALL we need is vaccines. That's just not true. We also need therapeutics like Paxlovid.

Trump and the ivermectin/HCQ/bleach debacle have made people think that vaccines are the ONLY way to deal with COVID and that's just not the case. Paxlovid is a great new therapeutic, but it's not perfect and we need to keep developing more. And we need to give people advice on how to prevent mild COVID from turning into pneumonia. Most hospitals don't even recommend an expectorant like Mucinex. Patients are just on their own googling and redditing to find what works for others. We need a standardized treatment protocol other than "drink water and sleep."
Vēritās
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Re: State of the Pandemic

Post by Vēritās »

The old adage, an ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure, seems apropos here. It is just flat out ridiculous to say "way too much emphasis" is placed on getting vaccinated. Not enough emphasis has been placed on it. If we were 95% vaccinated as opposed to 68% we'd likely see far fewer cases and deaths. Facts.

And it is still ridiculous to call Ivermectin a "treatment". You might as well call chicken soup and hydroxychloroquine a "treatment" because no legit doctor is prescribing ivermectin as a COVID treatment. It is also worth noting that steroids don't treat COVID, they treat the symptoms because it is an anti-inflammatory.
Vēritās
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Re: State of the Pandemic

Post by Vēritās »

drumdude wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:00 pm
Moreover, if you don't understand the difference between vaccine and treatment, you will continue to believe that ALL we need is vaccines. That's just not true. We also need therapeutics like Paxlovid.

Trump and the ivermectin/HCQ/bleach debacle have made people think that vaccines are the ONLY way to deal with COVID and that's just not the case. Paxlovid is a great new therapeutic, but it's not perfect and we need to keep developing more. And we need to give people advice on how to prevent mild COVID from turning into pneumonia. Most hospitals don't even recommend an expectorant like Mucinex. Patients are just on their own googling and redditing to find what works for others. We need a standardized treatment protocol other than "drink water and sleep."
We understand the difference.

Uh, you're the one who said too much emphasis is placed on vaccines, which are preventatives by design. Paxlovid is already being prescribed as a treatment to those who contract COVID.

"This study suggests that in the era of Omicron and in real-life settings, Paxlovid is highly effective in reducing the risk of severe COVID-19 or mortality." https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-ar ... 43/6599020

How about we focus on keeping people out of the hospitals instead of throwing your hands up and saying let's just focus on treatments since everyone is going to get it anyway? I'm sure the doctors and nurses around the country would appreciate prevention over treatment.
Res Ipsa
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Re: State of the Pandemic

Post by Res Ipsa »

drumdude wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:56 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:52 pm


In this context, why do you think the distinction is relevant?
I expanded above. Once you have an active COVID infection, you need treatment. The COVID vaccine is not a treatment. Ivermectin, steroids, and Paxlovid are COVID treatments. (Ivermectin has little to no evidence it is an effective treatment)

Saying "Moderna beats Ivermectin" is like saying "Apples beat oranges." It's a category error. They are two different use cases.

The vaccine PLUS Paxlovid works well because you have a prophylaxis combined with a treatment.
Sorry, I’m still not following why the distinction makes a difference in this context. Regardless of how they do what they do, outcomes using each can be compared in terms of morbidity and mortality. (It would be irrational to compare infection rates.)

That a combination of alternatives provides the most favorable outcome doesn’t make comparing the individual components irrational.

I read lots of antivaxxers claim that people should not get vaccinated because ivermectin was so effective as a treatment. It’s not irrational to test that claim by looking at the outcomes in terms of mortality and morbidity of each.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: State of the Pandemic

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Vēritās wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:42 am
Meanwhile, well known anti-virals like acyclovir haven't been studied much at all as a viable treatment for COVID. Why not? It seems like anti-virals designed to fight off viruses would be more useful in studies than anti-parasitics like Ivermectin. Well, because no one in Right Wing fake news land was promoting acyclovir as a cure.
for what it's worth, the downstream metabolite that is acyclovir's magic bullet inhibits DNA replication. COVID is an RNA virus.

Ivermectin had shown broad anti-viral capabilities in previous (in vitro) studies for RNA viruses.
Vēritās
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Re: State of the Pandemic

Post by Vēritās »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:34 pm
Vēritās wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:42 am
Meanwhile, well known anti-virals like acyclovir haven't been studied much at all as a viable treatment for COVID. Why not? It seems like anti-virals designed to fight off viruses would be more useful in studies than anti-parasitics like Ivermectin. Well, because no one in Right Wing fake news land was promoting acyclovir as a cure.
for what it's worth, the downstream metabolite that is acyclovir's magic bullet inhibits DNA replication. COVID is an RNA virus.

Ivermectin had shown broad anti-viral capabilities in previous (in vitro) studies for RNA viruses.
Turns out Clorox really does kill COVID... in vitro.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: State of the Pandemic

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Vēritās wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:47 pm
Doctor Steuss wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:34 pm

for what it's worth, the downstream metabolite that is acyclovir's magic bullet inhibits DNA replication. COVID is an RNA virus.

Ivermectin had shown broad anti-viral capabilities in previous (in vitro) studies for RNA viruses.
Turns out Clorox really does kill COVID... in vitro.
Lol. Reminds me of a cartoon I saw once of a researcher holding a gun to a petri dish.

I was just noting that while ivermectin was undoubtedly politicized, and 3rd-party funding resources were likely diverted to it for too long because of that, it did have legitimate cause of study as a potential treatment. While RNA anti-viral abilities were only shown in vitro at the time, it did have in vivo evidence with DNA viruses.

From an evidence standpoint, ivermectin was a valid and hopeful candidate for study.
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