Culture Vs. Doctrine

[_leeirons]

Using honest introspection, what are some claims or complaints that you have (i.e. against the Church of Jesus Christ of Letter-day Saints and anything that has been related to it) that are probably cultural in nature, and not doctrinal? In other words, what are some beliefs or practices among Mormons that you disagree with that should be attributed to cultural norms that developed within a relatively isolated community, and should not be blamed on falsified doctrinal revelations from God (assuming he exists at all)?

[_Guardiands]

Blacks being refused the priesthood. The church's stance against prohibition. The church's official stance against the ERA. The church's missionary program. Elder Benson's crazy conservative poltiical views. The church's hatred of communism. The perspective of alcohol and coffee and smoking being sinful. The church's perspective of how women fit into the church.

I'll try to think of some others. Do you have some, I'd also be interested in what you found to be cultural and not doctrinal.

[_leeirons]

Let me reword the question. What things do you think are done or are believed that had a cultural beginning, and not a beginning in prophecy (whether falsified or true). For example, I think the direction young people are given to get married and have kids as soon as possible is a practice that was developed by the culture. I do not think there was any revelation on this matter.

[_Polygamy Porter]

For example, I think the direction young people are given to get married and have kids as soon as possible is a practice that was developed by the culture. I do not think there was any revelation on this matter.

First, are you leeuniverse?

Now on to my reply.

While there may not be any hard and fast evidence in regards to the kids being "commanded" to get married early and pop out kids quick, there is a "cultural" feeling that since they heard it fall from the lips of one of the lord's anointed, that is close enough to revelation or commandment.

Many member believe this and are told so both in person and in print.

My personal feelings on why they push the early marriage/kid agenda? They know that the best converts come from TBM wombs.

Looking at the recent barrage of "talks" given by the Apostles and GAs, concerning the 20-something kids not putting of marriage and kids, is a sure sign of fear by the bean counters. They see a gap coming, and it is getting wider. Kids are following the trend of the US and other industrialized nations, by putting off both marriage and kids. And even worse for the COB, many will have less kids, which is a reduction of future tithes..

[_Gazelam]

I believe that no worthy young Latter-day Saint man or woman should spare any reasonable effort to come to a house of the Lord to begin life together. The marriage vows taken in these hallowed places and the sacred covenants entered into for time and all eternity are proof against many of the temptations of life that tend to break homes and destroy happiness....

The blessings and promises that come from beginning life together, for time and eternity, in a temple of the Lord, cannot be obtained in any other way and worthy young Latter-day Saint men and women who so begin life together find that their eternal partnership under the everlasting covenant becomes the foundation upon which are built peace, happiness, virtue, love, and all of the other eternal verities of life, here and hereafter.

Heber J. Grant, April, 1936

[_Mercury]

I believe that no worthy young Latter-day Saint man or woman should spare any reasonable effort to come to a house of the Lord to begin life together. The marriage vows taken in these hallowed places and the sacred covenants entered into for time and all eternity are proof against many of the temptations of life that tend to break homes and destroy happiness....

The blessings and promises that come from beginning life together, for time and eternity, in a temple of the Lord, cannot be obtained in any other way and worthy young Latter-day Saint men and women who so begin life together find that their eternal partnership under the everlasting covenant becomes the foundation upon which are built peace, happiness, virtue, love, and all of the other eternal verities of life, here and hereafter.

Heber J. Grant, April, 1936

If a temple marriage is the best way to avoid divorce then why are the number of divorces just as high or higher than those who marry outside the temple?

The argument is flawed by admissions from your own church.

[_Jason Bourne]

I believe that no worthy young Latter-day Saint man or woman should spare any reasonable effort to come to a house of the Lord to begin life together. The marriage vows taken in these hallowed places and the sacred covenants entered into for time and all eternity are proof against many of the temptations of life that tend to break homes and destroy happiness....

The blessings and promises that come from beginning life together, for time and eternity, in a temple of the Lord, cannot be obtained in any other way and worthy young Latter-day Saint men and women who so begin life together find that their eternal partnership under the everlasting covenant becomes the foundation upon which are built peace, happiness, virtue, love, and all of the other eternal verities of life, here and hereafter.

Heber J. Grant, April, 1936

If a temple marriage is the best way to avoid divorce then why are the number of divorces just as high or higher than those who marry outside the temple?

The argument is flawed by admissions from your own church.

I believe you are incorrect. Last I heard temple marriages ran around 12% ending in divorce. Much much lower then those out of the temple. Can you provide evidence contrary?

[_Gazelam]

You are missing the point vegas. The promises made in the Temple in the Marriage Covenant are all attached to obedience to the principles taught. If th ecouple fails to pray together, to practice their religion together, to fall sway to the attitudes of the world, then all of the promises made to them are of no force. (D&C 132:25-27.)

The priesthod and all of its ordinances are exalting only if they are practised. A man may be baptised and go through the temple, but if is wicked in his heart and is not obedient and is a liar, then the Holy Spirit will never seal the ordinance and he will be damned.

Gaz

[_Polygamy Porter]

I believe that no worthy young Latter-day Saint man or woman should spare any reasonable effort to come to a house of the Lord to begin life together. The marriage vows taken in these hallowed places and the sacred covenants entered into for time and all eternity are proof against many of the temptations of life that tend to break homes and destroy happiness....

The blessings and promises that come from beginning life together, for time and eternity, in a temple of the Lord, cannot be obtained in any other way and worthy young Latter-day Saint men and women who so begin life together find that their eternal partnership under the everlasting covenant becomes the foundation upon which are built peace, happiness, virtue, love, and all of the other eternal verities of life, here and hereafter.

Heber J. Grant, April, 1936

If a temple marriage is the best way to avoid divorce then why are the number of divorces just as high or higher than those who marry outside the temple?

The argument is flawed by admissions from your own church.

I believe you are incorrect. Last I heard temple marriages ran around 12% ending in divorce. Much much lower then those out of the temple. Can you provide evidence contrary?

Keep in mind that many civil divorces are still counted as intact "Temple Marriages". Depends on which "marriage" the Mormon statisticians are counting I'd suppose?

[_MormonMendacity]

Using honest introspection, what are some claims or complaints that you have (i.e. against the Church of Jesus Christ of Letter-day Saints and anything that has been related to it) that are probably cultural in nature, and not doctrinal? In other words, what are some beliefs or practices among Mormons that you disagree with that should be attributed to cultural norms that developed within a relatively isolated community, and should not be blamed on falsified doctrinal revelations from God (assuming he exists at all)?

Lee,

It's often hard for me to distinguish between the two. It seems that nailing down elusive Mormon doctrine is a tricky thing.

Joseph and Brigham taught many things and now it seems that Mormon apologists simply distance themselves from this "further light and knowledge" that was provided by two of the more enlightened prophets. They simply indicate that what these men said is not Church doctrine.

I was active from eight to about forty and I loved the culture. I tortured myself when I didn't perform my Home Teaching with a happy heart or when I wondered about inconsistencies in stories, but I tell myself that I would prefer to be LDS and still believing than looked upon by my family and culture as an apostate. I wish two things: 1 - that the Church was true and 2 - if 1 isn't possible, that I didn't know it wasn't.

Maybe you should give us some concrete examples so we can comment on them.