Flawed Patriarchal Blessings
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that's the idea! Enjoy life! Life isn't about flogging yourself for feeling good. Soon enough ill be able to braid my beard. It will look kinda cool too, for some reason i have brown hair, and a bright orange beard.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
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Re: MM
Thank-you, Gazalem, for your thoughtful responses to my comments. I truly appreciate your personal explanations.
Here are some of my comments.
Do you know it by what we both would agree is evidence or by your opinion of feelings you have?
I reject almost all of "Luke's testimony" because it is anecdotal at best and an outright lie at worst. There is no example in my life of an amazing "miracle" that does not fit into the realm of statistical possibilities. No one has ever shown a proof of a miracle, and when that fact is put into the face of believers they dodge the charge by saying, "It is an adulterous generation that seeketh after a sign." Don't YOU think that is a convenient dodge? Don't YOU think that the people who wrote that dodge did so because they could NEVER PRODUCE PROOF OF THE MIRACLES THEY CLAIMED?
Which is more likely? That amazing miracles happen or that people make them up and then use the ADULTEROUS GENERATION clause to explain why they can't prove them?
Occam's Razor requires the conclusion that it was probably added.
ZERO PROOF. Remeber that, Gaz. That is why your faith is founded in confirmation bias instead of facts.
Contrived. Go walk on water and then show me how it actually works, please.
Do you hear yourself engage in confirmation bias here? Clever explanations to help your BIAS work in your mind? You are resorting to an explanation that lets God off the hook...or certainly allows you to believe in the unproven so that you don't have to shuck Mormonism in order to deal with facts.
GOD DOES NOT HEAL AMPUTEES.
I use "EXCUSE" here, Gaz, because if all the questions can simply be cleverly explained away then we stop using our brains to understand what MIGHT BE A MYTHOLOGY and just follow along.
The essential question here is whether the ancient writers can have any credibility about their writings if the miracles are not like they described. It is very convenient for 1st & 2nd Centruy believers to tell us stories of miracles for which they provide no objective evidence.
I could claim all sorts of miracles, too, and you couldn't prove me wrong, could you? So that's the reason I say that my once rock-solid testimony was actually no more rock-solid than the story about Jesus sticking an ear back on the Centurian. There is no proof -- but the innocent believer TRUSTS that the writers did not lie. -- Very risky.
I did. I got the answer. I realized there is NO INSPIRATION in the Church [Hinckley/Hoffman as prima facia evidence] and re-asked the question. I realized that the answer was nothing. I could ask if the sun is dark and get the same answer. Personal self-delusion coupled with naïve faith in the mythologies offered by my parents.
No he didn't. What you THINK was an answer is nothing more than wishful thinking. Let him answer a really good question that can be tested for it's truthfulness, like "What's the closing DOW price going to be on 1/31/2007? How many shares will have changed hands? What will IBM, Microsoft and Dell close at on those days?"
We can only challenge what we think the Lord told us about the truthfulness of the Gospel and the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith if we compare some facts about all that with the "revelation" we received. Joseph lied about so many things that it is unlikely that the revelation we received about the truthfulness of his mission was anything more than wishful thinking. No amount of prayer will fix the facts, Gaz.
I actually am capable of great things without God at all. Most of humanity can be very good without a belief in Jesus and dead prophets. Joseph certainly did not show us how to live when you consider the lies he told to people and the people he cheated during his life. I AM perfect. I am EXACTLY as PERFECT as I am willing to acknowldege myself to be. I don't need some imaginary hero to compare myself against. WE ARE ALL THE PERFECT CREATIONS THAT WE WERE MEANT TO BE. Realizing that fact is more important than all the revelations you'll get on bended knee.
With or without God we have agency. With or without laws we have agency. With or without prophets we have reason and feelings, hopes and desires, happiness and sadness. Overlaying all these things with a notion of God doesn't help any of us...since there is a much greater chance NO GOD EXISTS (there is no proof) than that one does exist.
Everything YOU know about God you get from ancient writings...unless you're claiming he has lunch with you everyday...and then I retract everything I just wrote.
I think you're a good man. Regardless how far apart we may be in these philosophies...I think you're perfect.
Here are some of my comments.
Gazelam wrote:First let me say thank you to your various comment made towards me. Very kind of you, and appreciated.
In regards to the healing, as a matter of fact, I do know that that event occured.
Do you know it by what we both would agree is evidence or by your opinion of feelings you have?
Gazelam wrote:If you reject that testimony, how much more of Lukes testimony do you dismiss?
I reject almost all of "Luke's testimony" because it is anecdotal at best and an outright lie at worst. There is no example in my life of an amazing "miracle" that does not fit into the realm of statistical possibilities. No one has ever shown a proof of a miracle, and when that fact is put into the face of believers they dodge the charge by saying, "It is an adulterous generation that seeketh after a sign." Don't YOU think that is a convenient dodge? Don't YOU think that the people who wrote that dodge did so because they could NEVER PRODUCE PROOF OF THE MIRACLES THEY CLAIMED?
Which is more likely? That amazing miracles happen or that people make them up and then use the ADULTEROUS GENERATION clause to explain why they can't prove them?
Gazelam wrote: or is it that you think the healing of the ear was added by a scribe at a later date?
Occam's Razor requires the conclusion that it was probably added.
All stories of miracles are contrived. We are pointing that out to you as clearly as we can. I can find THOUSANDS OF COINCIDENCES to prove whatever I want to believe. That is "confirmation bias". When a believer is challenged to explain the THOUSANDS OF EXAMPLES where it didn't work...they resort to the mysteries of God's mind for explanations.Gazelam wrote:How does the account of the healing of the ear compare in your view to the calming of the sea incident?
ZERO PROOF. Remeber that, Gaz. That is why your faith is founded in confirmation bias instead of facts.
Gazelam wrote:Both testify of Christs command over the elements. A doctrine he sought to instruct to Peter when he was teaching him to walk on water.
Contrived. Go walk on water and then show me how it actually works, please.
Gazelam wrote:The fact that amputees are not healed is a testimony of the faithlessness of this world. Does God want some peopel to have physical frailties? I think to a certain extent, yes.
Do you hear yourself engage in confirmation bias here? Clever explanations to help your BIAS work in your mind? You are resorting to an explanation that lets God off the hook...or certainly allows you to believe in the unproven so that you don't have to shuck Mormonism in order to deal with facts.
GOD DOES NOT HEAL AMPUTEES.
Gazelam wrote:Not out of cruelty[EXCUSE], but in order to humble us [UNPROVEN EXCUSE] and bring worship [EXCUSE]and appreciation of his upholding power to our remembrance[EXCUSE]. God gives all of us trials to pass through[UNPROVEN EXCUSE]. His ultimate goal is for us to be independant on our righteousness[UNPROVEN EXCUSE]. Since all are different, all are tried in diferent ways[UNPROVEN EXCUSE]. How many handicaps are not visible, but equally crippling[IRRELEVANT TO THE QUESTION]? Amputees are a strong visible tool, but there are psychic scars I think that are equally strong[EXCUSE]. Also, I think many handicaps have nothing to do with God[UNPROVEN EXCUSE]. Some I have no doubt are just side effects of a fallen world.[UNPROVEN EXCUSE]
I use "EXCUSE" here, Gaz, because if all the questions can simply be cleverly explained away then we stop using our brains to understand what MIGHT BE A MYTHOLOGY and just follow along.
The essential question here is whether the ancient writers can have any credibility about their writings if the miracles are not like they described. It is very convenient for 1st & 2nd Centruy believers to tell us stories of miracles for which they provide no objective evidence.
I could claim all sorts of miracles, too, and you couldn't prove me wrong, could you? So that's the reason I say that my once rock-solid testimony was actually no more rock-solid than the story about Jesus sticking an ear back on the Centurian. There is no proof -- but the innocent believer TRUSTS that the writers did not lie. -- Very risky.
Gazelam wrote:If what I said in regards to revelation offended oyu, then take that as a sign that your indignation is appropriate. You have a birthright to receive revelation . Now go and weary the Lord with your prayers until he answers you.
I did. I got the answer. I realized there is NO INSPIRATION in the Church [Hinckley/Hoffman as prima facia evidence] and re-asked the question. I realized that the answer was nothing. I could ask if the sun is dark and get the same answer. Personal self-delusion coupled with naïve faith in the mythologies offered by my parents.
Gazelam wrote:Enos 1:4
4 And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.
In the next verse, the Lord answered him. But it took from that morning, until that evening in continual prayer. Show God you really want the answer. Tell him that you need the foundation. I know he answeres prayers. he answered mine, and who am I? I'm just a joe shmoe. If he answered me, He'll answer you.
No he didn't. What you THINK was an answer is nothing more than wishful thinking. Let him answer a really good question that can be tested for it's truthfulness, like "What's the closing DOW price going to be on 1/31/2007? How many shares will have changed hands? What will IBM, Microsoft and Dell close at on those days?"
We can only challenge what we think the Lord told us about the truthfulness of the Gospel and the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith if we compare some facts about all that with the "revelation" we received. Joseph lied about so many things that it is unlikely that the revelation we received about the truthfulness of his mission was anything more than wishful thinking. No amount of prayer will fix the facts, Gaz.
Gazelam wrote:Yes God asks us to be perfect. Whats he supposed to ask, be mediocre? Would that be more inspireing? Being perfect is a goal, and some have come close. Adam and Abraham spring to mind. As do Enoch and Seth. Your capable of great things once you shake the cares of this world from your shoulders and raise your eyes to heaven.
I actually am capable of great things without God at all. Most of humanity can be very good without a belief in Jesus and dead prophets. Joseph certainly did not show us how to live when you consider the lies he told to people and the people he cheated during his life. I AM perfect. I am EXACTLY as PERFECT as I am willing to acknowldege myself to be. I don't need some imaginary hero to compare myself against. WE ARE ALL THE PERFECT CREATIONS THAT WE WERE MEANT TO BE. Realizing that fact is more important than all the revelations you'll get on bended knee.
Gazelam wrote:And concerning judgement. Your not supposed to pass final judgement, but you are supposed to judge. Else why the phrase, "choose you this day whom you wil serve?" that's why agency is such an issue, and why God judges our actions. We are always making choices, includeing who we spend our time with, and allow to be around our children. the trick is how oyu treat those on a lower level of the repentence path. that's where tact comes in. Being careful to dismiss the sin, and not the sinner. Speaking out against the sin, while inspireing the sinner to stop the offence. Its not easy, and sometimes feeling get hurt.
With or without God we have agency. With or without laws we have agency. With or without prophets we have reason and feelings, hopes and desires, happiness and sadness. Overlaying all these things with a notion of God doesn't help any of us...since there is a much greater chance NO GOD EXISTS (there is no proof) than that one does exist.
Everything YOU know about God you get from ancient writings...unless you're claiming he has lunch with you everyday...and then I retract everything I just wrote.
Gazelam wrote:I hurt my own feelings all the time. The same criticisms I apply to others, I apply to myself. Some people perceive me as self-righteous (just ask my wife) but is it still self righteous if I apply the same view towards myself? Right is right, and wrong is wrong. Why is it not ok to say so?
Gaz
I think you're a good man. Regardless how far apart we may be in these philosophies...I think you're perfect.
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder" --Homer Simpson's version of Pascal's Wager
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
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Re: GIMR
Gazelam wrote:First let me say that though your posts are long, they are never longwinded, and always interesting. Thank you for shareing your insights. because of your background and racial heritage, you offer a unique insight that few others could.
Well I appreciate you seeing that, Gaz.
Can I ask you two questions? First: What did you originaly base your testimony on? Why did you originaly join the church? You may of stated this in another thread, but please repeat for us.
Gaz, I still have a testimony. It's of God....who transcends church and religion. I almost lost that testimony when I was on my way out of the LDS church, but I soon came to realize the folly of walking away from such unconditional love.
I joined the church out of a need for acceptance. When I realized that most of the "acceptance" I got was based on my performance as the perfect Mormon, I started to step back.
Second: What is the core of your hardness towards the church? The attitudes of the people, or a Doctrine? I know oyu have issues with the Cain Doctrine, but does it extend beyond that?
First of all, the Cain doctrine is just disgusting. My skin is the color it is because my ancestors were African, European, and Native American. And my African ancestors were not black because they're the offspring of the first murderer in existence. This teaching is hurtful and wrong. I also disagree with the idea of having to follow a prophet, to have some man who was born out of a womb like me, who will die someday like me tell me how to see God. My relationship with God is exactly that, MINE! I don't need to be going to some man who don't know me from Adam and don't care to take care of things I can take care of with my Heavenly Father. I don't trust another person with my spiritual life like that. Those are my two biggest issues. Where I am now, I can take the teachings I hear or leave it. That doesn't mean I'll lead the life of a heathen, but that does man that I'm in control of my spirituality, and not someone else.
Gaz[/quote]
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
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Re: GIMR
GIMR wrote:First of all, the Cain doctrine is just disgusting. My skin is the color it is because my ancestors were African, European, and Native American. And my African ancestors were not black because they're the offspring of the first murderer in existence. This teaching is hurtful and wrong.
Very well said. The mythology taught by the Mormon church on this topic justified many of Brigham Young's racist teachings and was perpetuated by the likes of Mark E. Peterson well into the 2nd half of the 20th Century.
Every person should hate bigoted speech, especially when it is disguised as doctrine from God.
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder" --Homer Simpson's version of Pascal's Wager
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
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