Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem
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Re: Brant Gardner

Post by Shulem »

Dear Brant,

I understand that you’ve immersed yourself in apologetics looking for every “plausible” excuse in which to fit your pet-model into the Book of Mormon text. You tap-dance all over the place in an effort to turn Mayans into Nephites or vice versa. Please, permit me to give another example and maybe it will sink into your head and ring the logic bell. I don’t mean to be condescending, but I simply want to wake you up!

Let’s talk about east coast cities on the eastern seaboard, more especially the city of Nephihah, a city by the east sea.

Alma 48 wrote:13 And it came to pass that the Nephites began the foundation of a city, and they called the name of the city Moroni; and it was by the east sea; and it was on the south by the line of the possessions of the Lamanites.

14 And they also began a foundation for a city between the city of Moroni and the city of Aaron, joining the borders of Aaron and Moroni; and they called the name of the city, or the land, Nephihah.

15 And they also began in that same year to build many cities on the north, one in a particular manner which they called Lehi, which was in the north by the borders of the seashore.

The city of Nephihah. What else do we know about Nephihah and east coast cities? We know (by the text) that the east coast cities were all on a single coast from northern Teancum and Bountiful with the connecting land of Jershon. Many cities led southward such as Antionum along the coast all the way down to the land of Nephi. A single east coast is mentioned in the text. All of the east coast cities from Teancum to the cities southward run north to south on a line having a single unbroken coast of the East Sea. The shape, form, and northern extension of the Yucatan peninsula in Mesoamerica is nowhere found in Book of Mormon text. Any attempt to fit the Yucatan in the geographic and topographic text of the eastern seaboard of the Book of Mormon is DOA. All land south of the narrow neck was south of the narrow neck. The narrow neck was the northern most part of the peninsula.

Now, let’s take a look at the southern cities on the eastern seaboard:

Alma 51 wrote:22 Behold, it came to pass that while Moroni was thus breaking down the wars and contentions among his own people, and subjecting them to peace and civilization, and making regulations to prepare for war against the Lamanites, behold, the Lamanites had come into the land of Moroni, which was in the borders by the seashore.

23 And it came to pass that the Nephites were not sufficiently strong in the city of Moroni; therefore Amalickiah did drive them, slaying many. And it came to pass that Amalickiah took possession of the city, yea, possession of all their fortifications.

24 And those who fled out of the city of Moroni came to the city of Nephihah; and also the people of the city of Lehi gathered themselves together, and made preparations and were ready to receive the Lamanites to battle.

25 But it came to pass that Amalickiah would not suffer the Lamanites to go against the city of Nephihah to battle, but kept them down by the seashore, leaving men in every city to maintain and defend it.

26 And thus he went on, taking possession of many cities, the city of Nephihah, and the city of Lehi, and the city of Morianton, and the city of Omner, and the city of Gid, and the city of Mulek, all of which were on the east borders by the seashore.

The Nephites understood and knew the rising of the sun was from the east and that this cardinal direction is always eastern or eastward. East is east no matter how far or how long. It’s based on position in facing the rising of the sun!

Alma 56:41 wrote:And it came to pass that again, when the light of the morning came
3 Nephi 1:19 wrote:And it came to pass that the sun did rise in the morning again, according to its proper order

So, let’s examine the strategy taken by Captain Moroni in liberating the city of Nephihah and pay close attention to the cardinal directions. Remember that the macro (rising and setting of the sun) is like unto the micro (one’s position in reference to sunrise and sunset) and one’s direction is determined thereby.

Alma 62 wrote:20 And when the night came, Moroni went forth in the darkness of the night, and came upon the top of the wall to spy out in what part of the city the Lamanites did camp with their army.

21 And it came to pass that they were on the east, by the entrance; and they were all asleep. And now Moroni returned to his army, and caused that they should prepare in haste strong cords and ladders, to be let down from the top of the wall into the inner part of the wall.

22 And it came to pass that Moroni caused that his men should march forth and come upon the top of the wall, and let themselves down into that part of the city, yea, even on the west, where the Lamanites did not camp with their armies.

23 And it came to pass that they were all let down into the city by night, by the means of their strong cords and their ladders; thus when the morning came they were all within the walls of the city.

Captain Moroni waited for the sun to go down and at nightfall he set out and climbed the city wall to spy on the Lamanites in order to figure out how to get his troops in there to spring a trap. He learned that the Lamanite camp was within the eastern part of the city so he strategized that if he could land his troops over the wall of the western part of the city while the Lamanites were asleep he could take the city. Also, note how the entrance to the city is strategically located on the east which leads us to understand that the city was surrounded by a wall with the front entry at the east facing the sea. Therefore the city was surrounded by a strong wall and entry to the city would be closely guarded. But Moroni’s troops scaled the west wall and breached the western portion of the city and from there surprised the Lamanites who fled out by a “pass.”

Therefore, we are to understand that east and west are expressly used in the strategy given in the text and cardinal directions are always associated with the rising and setting of the sun. If Moroni is standing on the west wall and looks straight ahead during morning, what will he see? He will see dawn, daybreak on the horizon of the east sea. Conversely, while standing on the same wall he would have to turn around 180 degrees in order to watch sunset. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west even when you’re standing on the wall of Nephihah!

This is a powerful example to show that cardinal directions are explicitly expressed in the Book of Mormon. In particular, the narrow neck and the flanking of its two seas. The so-called narrow neck of Tehuantepec with its southern and northern seas are not a match for the Book of Mormon.
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Re: River Sidon at Delmarva

Post by Shulem »

The river Sidon is first mentioned in the Book of Mormon during the events occurring in 87 BC by which Alma and the Nephites were forced to go to war with the conspiring Almicites and the Lamanites who were in league with them. Hence, readers do not learn about the existence of this major river until 500 years after Lehi sailed to the promised land! Alma chapter two is when we first learn about the river Sidon and how this important topographic feature is a barrier that separates the land of Zarahemla from the land of Nephi. In this chapter we are given details on how Smith’s imaginary map used to create the stories in the Book of Mormon fit perfectly with that of Delmarva. Important points are given in relation to topographic features of the river Sidon within this geographic area of interest. According to the story, the Amlicites rebel and seek to invade Zarahemla. They make war against the Nephites at the hill Amnihu which is east of the river Sidon that runs by the land of Zarahemla. Alma takes his armies and “went up” (north) to the hill Amnihu to defend Zarahemla from the advancing forces of the enemy.

Alma 2 wrote:15 And it came to pass that the Amlicites came upon the hill Amnihu, which was east of the river Sidon, which ran by the land of Zarahemla, and there they began to make war with the Nephites.
  • Amlicites set up a command base atop the hill Amnihu
  • Hill Amnihu is on the east side of the river Sidon
  • Zarahemla is on the west side of the river Sidon
  • River Sidon runs “by” the land of Zarahemla
  • Therefore, the river Sidon runs in a northern and southerly direction

Alma 2 wrote:16 Now Alma, being the chief judge and the governor of the people of Nephi, therefore he went up with his people, yea, with his captains, and chief captains, yea, at the head of his armies, against the Amlicites to battle.

17 And they began to slay the Amlicites upon the hill east of Sidon. And the Amlicites did contend with the Nephites with great strength, insomuch that many of the Nephites did fall before the Amlicites.
  • Alma resided in the capital city of Zarahemla during this threat
  • Alma personally managed all military affairs
  • Alma took his armies and “went up” (northward) to prepare for battle
  • The text omits how Alma and his armies must have crossed the river Sidon
  • After Alma crossed Sidon, he contended with the Amlicites at the hill Amnihu

Alma 2 wrote:18 Nevertheless the Lord did strengthen the hand of the Nephites, that they slew the Amlicites with great slaughter, that they began to flee before them.

19 And it came to pass that the Nephites did pursue the Amlicites all that day, and did slay them with much slaughter, insomuch that there were slain of the Amlicites twelve thousand five hundred thirty and two souls; and there were slain of the Nephites six thousand five hundred sixty and two souls.
  • In spite of the fact the Amlicites had the upper ground (hill Amnihu) and the Nephites had exerted energy in crossing the river to attack a waiting enemy on high ground, Alma and his army got the upper hand
  • Amlicites fled from the Nephite army for the rest of the day
  • Battle casualties for both sides were counted and recorded by Alma

Alma 2 wrote:20 And it came to pass that when Alma could pursue the Amlicites no longer he caused that his people should pitch their tents in the valley of Gideon, the valley being called after that Gideon who was slain by the hand of Nehor with the sword; and in this valley the Nephites did pitch their tents for the night.

21 And Alma sent spies to follow the remnant of the Amlicites, that he might know of their plans and their plots, whereby he might guard himself against them, that he might preserve his people from being destroyed.

22 Now those whom he had sent out to watch the camp of the Amlicites were called Zeram, and Amnor, and Manti, and Limher; these were they who went out with their men to watch the camp of the Amlicites.

23 And it came to pass that on the morrow they returned into the camp of the Nephites in great haste, being greatly astonished, and struck with much fear, saying:
  • Nephites stop the pursuit and set up camp for the night in the valley of Gideon
  • Alma sent four spies to watch the fleeing Amlicites and learn of their plans
  • Spies return to the camp in the valley of Gideon the next day to make a report

Alma 2 wrote:24 Behold, we followed the camp of the Amlicites, and to our great astonishment, in the land of Minon, above the land of Zarahemla, in the course of the land of Nephi, we saw a numerous host of the Lamanites; and behold, the Amlicites have joined them;
  • Nephite spies have bad news for Alma
  • Fleeing Amlicites have joined up with a numerous army of Lamanites in the land of Minon
  • Land of Minon is only a day’s distance away from the valley of Gideon
  • Minon is “above” (north) of the land of Zarahemla but on the opposite side of Sidon
  • Minon is “in the course of the land of Nephi” or a corridor leading southward

Alma 2 wrote:25 And they are upon our brethren in that land; and they are fleeing before them with their flocks, and their wives, and their children, towards our city; and except we make haste they obtain possession of our city, and our fathers, and our wives, and our children be slain.
  • Recall that everything at this point is taking place on the east side of the river Sidon
  • Nephite community is fleeing from the Lamanites in “that land” (Minon)
  • Fleeing Nephites are tracking westward towards the city of Zarahemla
  • River Sidon is the gulf that divides or separates Zarahemla from all the battles taking place

Alma 2 wrote:26 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi took their tents, and departed out of the valley of Gideon towards their city, which was the city of Zarahemla.

27 And behold, as they were crossing the river Sidon, the Lamanites and the Amlicites, being as numerous almost, as it were, as the sands of the sea, came upon them to destroy them.

28 Nevertheless, the Nephites being strengthened by the hand of the Lord, having prayed mightily to him that he would deliver them out of the hands of their enemies, therefore the Lord did hear their cries, and did strengthen them, and the Lamanites and the Amlicites did fall before them.
  • Alma and his amies leave the valley of Gideon and retreat westward to the river Sidon to escape
  • Alma was attacked while his armies were crossing the river by an overwhelming foe
  • Alma held his ground while keeping the invaders at bay

Alma 2 wrote:29 And it came to pass that Alma fought with Amlici with the sword, face to face; and they did contend mightily, one with another.

30 And it came to pass that Alma, being a man of God, being exercised with much faith, cried, saying: O Lord, have mercy and spare my life, that I may be an instrument in thy hands to save and preserve this people.

31 Now when Alma had said these words he contended again with Amlici; and he was strengthened, insomuch that he slew Amlici with the sword.

32 And he also contended with the king of the Lamanites; but the king of the Lamanites fled back from before Alma and sent his guards to contend with Alma.

33 But Alma, with his guards, contended with the guards of the king of the Lamanites until he slew and drove them back.
  • Against all odds, Alma somehow manages to have a duel with king Amlici
  • Against all odds, Alma somehow manages to have a duel with the Lamanite king
  • Alma prevailed and drove his enemies back

Alma 2 wrote:34 And thus he cleared the ground, or rather the bank, which was on the west of the river Sidon, throwing the bodies of the Lamanites who had been slain into the waters of Sidon, that thereby his people might have room to cross and contend with the Lamanites and the Amlicites on the west side of the river Sidon.
  • Alma personally crossed the river Sidon
  • Amlicites and Lamanites were also crossing the river to continue the battle
  • Battle commenced on both sides of the river
  • Alma held the west bank and threw dead Lamanites into the river to clear the banks
  • Remaining Nephites crossed the river to contend with the Lamanites on the west side

Alma 2 wrote:35 And it came to pass that when they had all crossed the river Sidon that the Lamanites and the Amlicites began to flee before them, notwithstanding they were so numerous that they could not be numbered.

36 And they fled before the Nephites towards the wilderness which was west and north, away beyond the borders of the land; and the Nephites did pursue them with their might, and did slay them.

37 Yea, they were met on every hand, and slain and driven, until they were scattered on the west, and on the north, until they had reached the wilderness, which was called Hermounts; and it was that part of the wilderness which was infested by wild and ravenous beasts.

38 And it came to pass that many died in the wilderness of their wounds, and were devoured by those beasts and also the vultures of the air; and their bones have been found, and have been heaped up on the earth.
  • All armies eventually crossed over to the west side of the river Sidon
  • Nephites were now on their home turf
  • Nephites proved victorious and their enemies began to flee
  • Invaders were chased “towards the wilderness which was west and north” (NW)
  • Invaders “were scattered on the west, and on the north” (NW)
  • Nephites pursued the enemy into the dreaded wilderness of Hermounts
  • Many died in the NW wilderness of Hermounts that was infested with ravenous beasts


In chapter three we are given a clue about how the river Sidon relates to the lands mentioned in the war stories of chapter two. What is that clue?

Alma 3 wrote:3 And now as many of the Lamanites and the Amlicites who had been slain upon the bank of the river Sidon were cast into the waters of Sidon; and behold their bones are in the depths of the sea, and they are many.

We are given to understand that the very river in which the dead Lamanites and Amlicites were cast into was not far distant from the mouth of the river which leads into the sea. How so? The bodies would float downstream, southward into the sea! The bodies could not have floated upstream because the “head of the river Sidon” is northward near Manti, thus contrary to popular misconception by many Book of Mormon scholars, the river Sidon flows south, downstream until it reaches the sea that lies south of Zarahemla. All of this suggests that the river Sidon was NOT a long river but was local to that quadrant of the land with the city of Zarahemla being the most important city “by” the river. The river was less than 50 miles long! All crossing of the river Sidon was between its head near the land of Manti and the mouth that is south of Zarahemla! Nobody was forced to cross the river Sidon when travelling directly from the land of Nephi to Bountiful and to the land northward. Contrary to popular belief the river does NOT flow north with a mouth on the east sea! Those scholars are mistaken in interpreting the text and their models depicting the river Sidon are erroneous.

Several years later another battle took place a near Manti at the river Sidon and bodies of the dead were thrown into the river to float downstream into the sea. It’s important to note that where ever bodies are thrown into the river they manage to find their way to the sea because it’s such a short river!


Alma 44 wrote:22 And it came to pass that they did cast their dead into the waters of Sidon, and they have gone forth and are buried in the depths of the sea.

Note how everything comes together in the following illustration as explained in the text and comments above. The red arrow indicates the direction (NW) in which the enemies fled only to suffer horrible defeat in the wilderness of Hermounts!


Image



Direct references that designate Manti as “the head of the river Sidon” north of Zarahemla in relation to other named places throughout the text:

Alma wrote:
  • 22:27 the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon
  • 22:29 the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon
  • 43:22 Behold, now it came to pass that they durst not come against the Nephites in the borders of Jershon; therefore they departed out of the land of Antionum into the wilderness, and took their journey round about in the wilderness, away by the head of the river Sidon, that they might come into the land of Manti and take possession of the land

Interestingly enough we are given another glimpse of the geography between Zarahemla and the land of Gideon when Alma made a special trip later during his ministry when visiting that land.

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Re: River Sidon at Delmarva

Post by Zosimus »

Shulem wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:21 pm
Direct references that designate Manti as “the head of the river Sidon” north of Zarahemla in relation to other named places throughout the text:
You’re proposing that Manti is north of Zarahemla?
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Re: River Sidon at Delmarva

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:33 am
Shulem wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:21 pm
Direct references that designate Manti as “the head of the river Sidon” north of Zarahemla in relation to other named places throughout the text:
You’re proposing that Manti is north of Zarahemla?

That’s a good question and I am aware of the ambiguity you might think I have regarding Manti and how it’s placed or presented in the stories of the text. I am well aware of Manti. But first, let’s understand that there is a “land of Zarahemla” and a “city of Zarahemla” and Smith’s stories are working around and about the lands keeping it all together as fluently as he can. Parts of the land of Zarahemla may be viewed on the same latitude as that of the land of Manti because they were adjoined and the river Sidon was a common point of interest for both. Also, bear in mind that there is also a “land of Manti” and a “city of Manti” as defined in the text. There is a kind of melding when contemplating the round and aboutness of all the land! But, to answer your question, firmly, the city of Zarahemla was south of Manti because the river head was northward. Keep in mind that Smith developed his stories as he went along, one step at a time.

Image


I would like to simply state for the record that the Book of Mormon is not flawless. There are mistakes made therein and even Joseph Smith was aware of that when he finished the book and readied it for publication with a disclaimer. So in effect I have my own disclaimer as did Joseph. But in his mind, it was good enough to submit as is. Whatever mistakes therein could be blamed on the mistakes of men. Simple as that.

I would like to point out that one of those mistakes is in the chronology regarding Enos. I’ve covered that in a couple of pages in the thread about the first 600 years. Joseph Smith had quite a task in keeping the chronology and the geography consistent but he did not present a perfect picture or set of numbers. There are errors. As you see, I approach the text of the Book of Mormon very differently than apologists do and moreover the faithful who think it’s the word of God when in fact it is not!

Let me conclude by saying that the Book of Mormon is the work of man and is not the word of God. It is not infallible and every verse therein is subject to scrutiny.
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Re: River Sidon at Delmarva

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Shulem wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:32 pm

That’s a good question and I am aware of the ambiguity you might think I have regarding Manti and how it’s placed or presented in the stories of the text. I am well aware of Manti. But first, let’s understand that there is a “land of Zarahemla” and a “city of Zarahemla” and Smith’s stories are working around and about the lands keeping it all together as fluently as he can. Parts of the land of Zarahemla may be viewed on the same latitude as that of the land of Manti because they were adjoined and the river Sidon was a common point of interest for both. Also, bear in mind that there is also a “land of Manti” and a “city of Manti” as defined in the text. There is a kind of melding when contemplating the round and aboutness of all the land! But, to answer your question, firmly, the city of Zarahemla was south of Manti because the river head was northward. Keep in mind that Smith developed his stories as he went along, one step at a time.
Manti cannot be north of Zarahemla without creating conflicts with the text. I suppose it's possible to view Delmarva as a rough shape for the Land Southward, but as soon as you zoom in for the details there's nothing that stands out.

There's no match for the internal Book of Mormon geography in the Americas. Every attempt to make it fit end up in a mess.
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Re: River Sidon at Delmarva

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:45 am
Manti cannot be north of Zarahemla without creating conflicts with the text. I suppose it's possible to view Delmarva as a rough shape for the Land Southward, but as soon as you zoom in for the details there's nothing that stands out.

There's no match for the internal Book of Mormon geography in the Americas. Every attempt to make it fit end up in a mess.

I will take Manti more into account later. Let’s table that for now and concede that the land round about Zarahemla as it relates to other lands was an area difficult to frame as “the people assembled themselves together throughout all the land” to make themselves known in representing their various towns, districts, and territories. Keep in mind that Smith was dictating his story out of hat and you (everyone) have two choices:

1. He was making it all up as he went along trying to keep his story consistent and straight the best he could.
2. It’s a genuine historical record passed down by Mormon and Moroni and divinely translated (retold) directly to Joseph Smith by magical means while his face was in a hat.

Ask yourself: Is it harder to accept “conflicts with the text” regarding geography as it would be with chronology? Can conflict boil down to error made during the dictation process? I’m glad you at least recognize that Delmarva at minimum can be viewed as “a rough shape for the Land Southward” which is the single most important factor. Obviously, I believe that much of what is in the internal geography written into the book is pure fiction and storytelling that fits into the confines of the peninsula. A single river is mentioned (by name) and we don’t learn anything about that until hundreds of years after they first settle the land. How crazy is that? That in and of itself says a lot. I will be getting deeper into Sidon as I unfold more cards on the table.

All I ask is you keep an open mind. The location of the peninsula embraces the patriotic ideals the Heartlanders love about America and Cumorah is within reach.
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Re: River Sidon at Delmarva

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Shulem wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:52 pm
Keep in mind that Smith was dictating his story out of hat and you (everyone) have two choices:

1. He was making it all up as he went along trying to keep his story consistent and straight the best he could.
2. It’s a genuine historical record passed down by Mormon and Moroni and divinely translated (retold) directly to Joseph Smith by magical means while his face was in a hat.

All I ask is you keep an open mind.
You're asking to keep an open mind, but limiting us to either acknowledging that (1) Joseph alone made it all up or (2) its a genuine historical record. There are other possibilities. Just two off the top of my head:

3. Joseph was riffing off an existing text that may or may not have had anything to do with a specific geography in the Americas
4. Joseph was dictating random narratives to impress the onlookers in the next room while Oliver copied from an existing text that may or may not have had anything to do with a specific geography in the Americas

There have also been plenty of hypotheses that the Book of Mormon was written by someone other than Joseph. There are arguments that support Solomon Spaulding (this is far from being debunked as many apologists claim) or Sidney Rigdon or Oliver Cowdery as author. I think there's also a case to be made that Luman Walters, Samuel Mitchell, Constantine Rafinesque, or even Gilbert Hunt had a hand in authorship, whether wittingly or unwittingly.

I'm all for keeping an open mind
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Re: River Sidon at Delmarva

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Zosimus wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:02 am
You're asking to keep an open mind, but limiting us to either acknowledging that (1) Joseph alone made it all up or (2) its a genuine historical record. There are other possibilities. Just two off the top of my head:

Hold on. There are no other possibilities. It’s absolutely an either-or situation. Joseph Smith credited himself as the author and proprietor of the very book he published in 1830. It’s true that he garnered ideas for his book from other possible sources but Smith cooked his own book and made it up all by himself. He dictated and his scribe(s) wrote. End of story.

Zosimus wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:02 am
3. Joseph was riffing off an existing text that may or may not have had anything to do with a specific geography in the Americas

Joseph Smith got ideas from other sources and adopted them into his own story. I don’t dispute that. But he never credited them. He never acknowledges them. He presented his own book in original form as the author and propriety in translating the gold plates which were alleged to be a genuine historical record of the former inhabitants of the very land (people of Nephi, and also the Lamanites) in which the plates were buried -- New York. The Testimony of the Three Witnesses makes indirect reference to the Jaredites having lived in America in stating they “who came from the tower” left the Old World and “came” to the New World -- America. In other words, they left Babylon and *came* to America to live on the promised land.

Zosimus wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:02 am
4. Joseph was dictating random narratives to impress the onlookers in the next room while Oliver copied from an existing text that may or may not have had anything to do with a specific geography in the Americas

They were not random narratives. They were highly selective and organized. The narratives were framed with a specific geography and timeline in mind. All of it came from Joseph Smith’s mind. Every single word! Your proposal that Oliver may have copied from an existing text is preposterous and completely out of order. You’ll need to take that back. Oliver wrote what Joseph Smith dictated just as Martin Harris wrote what Joseph dictated when he tendered the 116 missing pages (Book of Lehi) that tells the same story of how Lehi left Jerusalem to come to the promised land leading up to king Mosiah. All of that was given to Martin Harris BEFORE Joseph Smith ever met the likes of Oliver Cowdery. So, to imply that Cowdery was copying from a prewritten text would also require Harris to have done the same. But that is not how the Book of Mormon was produced. Smith dictated and his scribes wrote. That has been well documented as Dan Vogel can attest to that.

Zosimus wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:02 am
There have also been plenty of hypotheses that the Book of Mormon was written by someone other than Joseph.

Tell that to Martin Harris who acted as the first scribe. Smith dictated and Harris wrote. End of story.

Zosimus wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:02 am
There are arguments that support Solomon Spaulding (this is far from being debunked as many apologists claim) or Sidney Rigdon or Oliver Cowdery as author. I think there's also a case to be made that Luman Walters, Samuel Mitchell, Constantine Rafinesque, or even Gilbert Hunt had a hand in authorship, whether wittingly or unwittingly.

Again, Smith had already translated the Book of Lehi (116 pages) with Martin Harris before he ever met Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery. There was enough information in that work alone to put the Book of Mormon on original ground. When Smith used Cowdery as his scribe he basically had to retell the story from another viewpoint using Nephi because it was impossible to retranslate what he could not perfectly recall because Lucy Harris had the original manuscript and could expose the differences between the original and a retranslation. Cowdery simply wrote what Smith dictated. Smith hadn’t met Rigdon until December of 1830 after the book was published.

Zosimus wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:02 am
I'm all for keeping an open mind

I like that about you.
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Re: River Sidon at Delmarva

Post by Zosimus »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:48 am
Hold on. There are no other possibilities. It’s absolutely an either-or situation ... He dictated and his scribe(s) wrote. End of story.
Well sure, but still you're saying that Joseph plagiarized. So its not an either-or situation. He could have plagiarized 1% and made up the other 99% or plagiarized 99% and made up 1%.

What I'm saying is that we don't know if the bits about some unrecognizable geography was plagiarized or came from Joseph. Given the fact that after nearly 200 years noone has been able to identify the real world location of the Book of Mormon geography in the Americas, it seems to me that the Joseph himself didn't even have a real world location in mind. I know you're arguing that he did, but I don't yet see enough in Delmarva that matches. When you zoom in on the details in Delmarva things get as messy as Meso's Nephite North and Heartland's narrow neck in Niagara.
Zosimus wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:02 am
They were not random narratives. They were highly selective and organized. The narratives were framed with a specific geography and timeline in mind. All of it came from Joseph Smith’s mind. Every single word!
Even though there were witnesses to the translation process, there is no way to know if what Joseph was reading out loud from the hat was what actually ended up on the printing press. He could have been reciting Isaiah the whole time, or random stories of native Americans mixed with quotes from Cicero's Orations (hat tip to Luman Walters) for all we know.
Zosimus wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:02 am
Your proposal that Oliver may have copied from an existing text is preposterous and completely out of order. You’ll need to take that back.
I'm not the first (or last) to propose that Oliver Cowdery played a role in the authorship of the Book of Mormon. You'd need evidence to support that Joseph was the sole author and his scribe who sat by his side the entire time had no role in it before that one goes away.
Zosimus wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:02 am
Tell that to Martin Harris who acted as the first scribe. Smith dictated and Harris wrote. End of story.
The translation process was slow when Emma and Martin were scribes and things proceeded unusually fast when Oliver acted as scribe. Why would that be? Makes me think the scribe was a factor. For example, Smith could have been reciting anything he wanted from memory while Oliver pretended to write it all down. Meanwhile the text was already written up and ready to go to press. There was an account by Lorenzo Saunders claiming he saw Cowdery “writing, I suppose the ‘Book of Mormon’ with books and manuscripts laying on the table before him”. Sure, Oliver might have been preparing school lessons, or he might have been writing the Book of Mormon, as Lorenzo Saunders supposed.

We don't know. I'm not ready to limit the possibilities to your two options.
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Shulem
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Re: River Sidon at Delmarva

Post by Shulem »

Alma 3 wrote:3 And now as many of the Lamanites and the Amlicites who had been slain upon the bank of the river Sidon were cast into the waters of Sidon; and behold their bones are in the depths of the sea, and they are many.
Alma 44 wrote:22 And it came to pass that they did cast their dead into the waters of Sidon, and they have gone forth and are buried in the depths of the sea.

Mesoamerican & North American Sidon Rivers

Let’s take a break and have a little fun, shall we? :D

Imagine an ancient Mesoamerican Nephite in the region of Guatemala describing the above verses in reference to bodies being thrown into a river. How would it compare with where apologists theorize a location for Zarahemla on a modern map with corresponding rivers as a viable candidate for Sidon? Some proposed models show Zarahemla a couple hundred miles inland away from the coast. Consider the snaky like Usumacinta River that turns and twists in a snakelike fashion for hundreds and hundreds of miles. Or the Grijalva River that winds about for hundreds of miles. Although they are rivers that finally flow into the sea, it’s hard to imagine an ancient historian describing bones having “gone forth” for hundreds of miles in a river to be “buried in the depths of the sea.” It makes little sense to me. What’s wrong with that picture? It makes no sense! In contrast, the Pocomoke River in Delmarva is a short river with a direct shot into the Chesapeake Bay according to the maps available to Joseph Smith. It’s easy to imagine bodies floating and finding their way to the sea because it’s a straight shot and the current will sweep the dead and bury them at sea.

The same problem exists for the Heartlander model which identifies the mighty Mississippi River as the Sidon River. It makes no sense for an ancient Nephite to imagine bones floating nearly two thousand miles through endless turns and bends going downstream in order to reach the Gulf of Mexico. That certainly is not something that would have been written into the script. It makes no sense! Sorry, but it’s just dumb.

HOWEVER, it’s easy to see how a straight shot Pocomoke River could easily carry bones to sea in which they would meet their destiny in a burial at sea. And that is what Joseph Smith wrote into his script. It makes perfect sense!

So what do you think of them apples, Dan Vogel? If you want to understand Joseph Smith then you need to get into his mind while he’s looking at the map -- not later when others come along and interpret the story with terrible calculation. ;)


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