Book of Mormon Geography

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Marcus
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Re: Lamanite

Post by Marcus »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:20 pm
Marcus wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:41 am
because he using the map as an aid to tell the story. It's no conflict in my opinion.
I think this the main problem Shulem faces when trying to explain his thesis. I don’t believe Dan Vogel understood this point, either.

https://www.discussmormonism.com/viewto ... 8#p2764188
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:23 pm
Is Westeros a real place?

Image

Of course not. But is Westeros’ Dorne based on southwest England (flipped)? Is Westeros’ south based on Ireland (upside down)? Is Westeros’ north based on England and Wales (misshapen)? Is Westeros’ wall Hadrian’s wall? Is beyond the wall based on Scotland (misshapen)? Take a look:

Image

It sure looks like it. Shulem’s identification of delmarva as the inspiration for the primary setting within the Book of Mormon narrative is accurate, especially considering the source material.

- Doc
Once again, Delmarva is a template, or a narrative scaffold. The literal dimensions aren’t important. The peninsula can be enlarged as needed, but Joseph Smith has somewhere to plant his fictional characters in a fictional land. Remember, this book was meant to be a novel, not scripture.

- Doc
I agree, it always seemed to be a disconnect. And i love the Westoros map comparison.

Calling it a narrative scaffold, like Davis' narrative leads or headings, works well.
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Zosimus
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Re: Lamanite

Post by Zosimus »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:20 pm
Once again, Delmarva is a template, or a narrative scaffold. The literal dimensions aren’t important. The peninsula can be enlarged as needed, but Joseph Smith has somewhere to plant his fictional characters in a fictional land. Remember, this book was meant to be a novel, not scripture.
I understand the argument that Delmarva could have been Joseph's narrative scaffold. But if literal dimensions aren't important then the very strong counter-argument to Delmarva is the hemispheric model.

Most early saints, and likely Joseph Smith himself according to Dan Vogel, were satisfied that South America was the Land Southward, North America was the Land Northward, and the Narrow Neck was the Isthmus of Darien.

I acknowledge Shulem's argument that Joseph decided to ditch Delmarva and shift the Lehite landing site to Darien. But that's difficult to explain since Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer seem to preach in November of 1830 that the Lehites landed in Chile.

This would mean that the three men closest to Joseph Smith (two of which were the primary scribes of the text) decided to shift the entire narrative of the Book of Mormon from Delmarva to Darien eight months after the book was published. Why? If literal dimensions aren't important. If scale, shape, distances and details aren't a concern for the author of a fictional novel, then the simplest explanation is that Darien was the narrative scaffold. That scaffold worked just fine for the leaders and members of the church for over 100 years.
Marcus
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Re: Lamanite

Post by Marcus »

Zosimus wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:39 am
...this would mean that the three men closest to Joseph Smith (two of which were the primary scribes of the text) decided to shift the entire narrative of the Book of Mormon from Delmarva to Darien eight months after the book was published....
Ill let Shulem respond if i am getting this wrong, but i think his point has always been to disregard anything said AFTER the Book of Mormon was written. Using Delmarva as a template was necessary during the writing. Comments made after are irrelevant, and don't change anything. The task of creating a fiction was finished.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Lamanite

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Zosimus wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:39 am
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:20 pm
Once again, Delmarva is a template, or a narrative scaffold. The literal dimensions aren’t important. The peninsula can be enlarged as needed, but Joseph Smith has somewhere to plant his fictional characters in a fictional land. Remember, this book was meant to be a novel, not scripture.
I understand the argument that Delmarva could have been Joseph's narrative scaffold. But if literal dimensions aren't important then the very strong counter-argument to Delmarva is the hemispheric model.
Sure, if you ignore the obvious geographic details Shulem laid out and mosaic plagiarism Joseph Smith used with regard to View of the Hebrews and most importantly The Late War.

- Doc
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2. Every utterance has a winner or a loser.
3. Curiosity is feigned.
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Zosimus
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Sinbad and the Seven Seas

Post by Zosimus »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:50 pm

Sure, if you ignore the obvious geographic details Shulem laid out
I'm not ignoring any details. So far we have a narrow neck, a land southward surrounded by water on three sides and a land of many waters in the north. All of these are found in the hemispheric model as well. So I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of Shulem's cards.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:50 pm
and mosaic plagiarism Joseph Smith used with regard to View of the Hebrews and most importantly The Late War.
I believe there's a stronger case to be made for Arabic histories and geographies as the source material for the Book of Mormon. Unless I've misunderstood Chris Johnson's research, the 1822 Koran has more n gram matches with the Book of Mormon than Late War and View of the Hebrews. From the Johnson's blog:

"After a few tests it was clear that the Book of Mormon was a product of its culture, and could not have been made before 1822 since it relied on too many phrases found only in an 1822 Koran."

Image

According to Philetus Spear Joseph Smith had a copy of Arabian Nights, which would have included the tales of Sinbad's adventures through the Seven Seas. Sinbad's 4th voyage was to the Sea of Kalah or Kedah on the Malay Peninsula. I've already explained that Arabic annals identify Maroni as the founder of Kedah (source). That correspondence alone should be enough to spin heads, but there are more. I won't go into detail about the Book of Mormon names lifted from Arabic maps of the Malay Peninsula and surrounding islands, because it would take time to present the variations on spelling in the different texts. Suffice it to say that Arabic maps often confused the Comoros Islands and Madagascar with Malai. So the original Comoro was the Malay Peninsula (source). Here's just one example of three Book of Mormon toponyms found in the same limited geography.

Komor/Comoro = Cumorah
Rami/Rahma = Ramah (the name given to Cumorah in Jaredite times)
Kamrun/Kamran = Comron (a hill near Cumorah in Jaredite times)

All three toponyms are found next to each other on Al Idrisi's map:

Image

Note that the last reference there explains how Komor or Komoro takes its name from Komr or Kamran, a grandson of Noah who built boats around the time of the tower to carry his family across the seas to the Malay Peninsula. Komr is spelled Kumr in other geographies (source), so this Arabic narrative is clearly the source of the Jaredite narrative of Moriancumr. Jared and Moriancumr's sealed book (Ether 4:4-5) is even mentioned in the Akhbar al-Zaman, within a detailed description of the Seven Seas and the Kumr narrative described above:

"Mahalalel lived 895 years. His heir was his son Jared. He told him about the revealed sheets. He taught him the division of the land and the events to happen in the universe. He gave him the Book of the Secret of the Kingdom, which the angel Darâbil had written for Adam. The patriarchs were handed down this sealed book without ever seeing its content." (source)
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

You definitely are making thoughtful and informed points. I think, if I recall correctly from reading the CES Letter, Joseph Smith had access to a surprising number of source materials to draw from, including what you already posted. I wouldn’t be surprised if his pastiche de resistance included everything you mentioned above from stated sources.

- Doc
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2. Every utterance has a winner or a loser.
3. Curiosity is feigned.
4. Lying is performative.
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Moksha
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Moksha »

They had a vote over at the Mormon D&D as to where its posters thought the Book of Mormon lands were located. Apparently, their research is way out of date because there was no mention of either the Delmarva or the Malay Peninsula hypotheses. Perhaps they are not as committed to scholarship as this board's theoreticians.
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Shulem
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Shulem »

Moksha wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:21 am
They had a vote over at the Mormon D&D as to where its posters thought the Book of Mormon lands were located. Apparently, their research is way out of date because there was no mention of either the Delmarva or the Malay Peninsula hypotheses. Perhaps they are not as committed to scholarship as this board's theoreticians.

I certainly appreciate that point and agree.

You’ll note that I’ve disappeared from the discussion and choose to remain invisible for the time being. I’ve picked up my ball, my cards, and have gone home. Screw it. I quit.

I’m afraid very few are going to see what I’ve uncovered for what it is and the connection I feel I have with Joseph Smith. And that’s okay! I’m not complaining. I’m just leaving. I don’t feel I need to explain myself further. I just don’t care anymore.

Carry on.
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Re: Sinbad and the Seven Seas

Post by Kishkumen »

Zosimus wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:08 am
Note that the last reference there explains how Komor or Komoro takes its name from Komr or Kamran, a grandson of Noah who built boats around the time of the tower to carry his family across the seas to the Malay Peninsula. Komr is spelled Kumr in other geographies (source), so this Arabic narrative is clearly the source of the Jaredite narrative of Moriancumr. Jared and Moriancumr's sealed book (Ether 4:4-5) is even mentioned in the Akhbar al-Zaman, within a detailed description of the Seven Seas and the Kumr narrative described above:

"Mahalalel lived 895 years. His heir was his son Jared. He told him about the revealed sheets. He taught him the division of the land and the events to happen in the universe. He gave him the Book of the Secret of the Kingdom, which the angel Darâbil had written for Adam. The patriarchs were handed down this sealed book without ever seeing its content." (source)
This is the most interesting and illuminating post I have read in a long time. I thank you for it!
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Philo Sofee
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Re: Sinbad and the Seven Seas

Post by Philo Sofee »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:24 pm
Zosimus wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:08 am
Note that the last reference there explains how Komor or Komoro takes its name from Komr or Kamran, a grandson of Noah who built boats around the time of the tower to carry his family across the seas to the Malay Peninsula. Komr is spelled Kumr in other geographies (source), so this Arabic narrative is clearly the source of the Jaredite narrative of Moriancumr. Jared and Moriancumr's sealed book (Ether 4:4-5) is even mentioned in the Akhbar al-Zaman, within a detailed description of the Seven Seas and the Kumr narrative described above:

"Mahalalel lived 895 years. His heir was his son Jared. He told him about the revealed sheets. He taught him the division of the land and the events to happen in the universe. He gave him the Book of the Secret of the Kingdom, which the angel Darâbil had written for Adam. The patriarchs were handed down this sealed book without ever seeing its content." (source)
This is the most interesting and illuminating post I have read in a long time. I thank you for it!
I agree, and also THANKS for the links to the SOURCE of the info. I had no idea this work existed. It looks fantastically interesting! The stuff I can make into videos I tells ya...
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