Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Shulem
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Re: Learning to count

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Wolfman Kerry wrote:
And now we count further and see how Peleg was thirty when he had Reu and Reu was thirty-two when he had Serug and Serug was thirty when he had Nahor.

And it keeps on going because we also know that Nahor was twenty-nine when he had Terah.

This makes my head spin. That’s a whopping 121 more years to keep track of!

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101 + 121 = 222 years since the flood
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Re: Learning to count

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Wolfman Kerry wrote:
By golly, then we find out that Abram was born when Terah was age seventy. So that means Abram was born just 292 years after the flood!

Then we learn that Abram went to Egypt when he was about seventy-five years old and later changed his name to Abraham. Do you suppose he saw the Great Pyramids while in Egypt? Let’s ask John Gee; he’ll know.

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Lecture Of Faith

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Here is an important post in the Celestial forum where I have an imaginary conversation with Jeff Lindsay wherein I show how Joseph Smith dated Old Testament events printed in the Doctrine and Covenants and given to the entire Church in the Lectures of Faith. I recommend readers read or review it for the sake of this thread.

Chronology and Dating

And in this same vein, I would like to quote additional material from the Lecture which were faith sustaining beliefs held by all Latter-day Saints in Joseph Smith’s time and for over eighty years after.

LECTURE SECOND. Of Faith. SECTION II. wrote:45 Having traced the chronology of the world from Adam to Noah, we will now trace it from Noah to Abraham. Noah was 502 years old when Shem was born: 98 years afterward the flood came, being the 600th year of Noah’s age. And Moses informs us that Noah lived after the flood, 350 years: making him 950 years old when he died. Gen. 9:28, 29.
46 Shem was 100 years old when Arphaxed was born. Gen. 11:10, Arphaxed was 35 when Salah was born 11:12. Salah was 30 when Eber was born. 11:14. Eber was 34 when Peleg was born: in whose days the earth was divided. 11:16. Peleg was 30 when Reu was born. 11:18. Reu was 32 when Serug was born. 11:20. Serug was 30 when Nahor was born. 11:22. Nahor was 29 when Terah was born. 11:24. Terah was 70 when Haran and Abraham were born. 11:26.
47 There is some difficulty in the account given by Moses, of Abraham’s birth. Some have supposed, that Abraham was not born until Terah was 130 years old. This conclusion is drawn from a variety of scriptures, which are not to our purpose at present to quote. Neither is it a matter of any consequence to us, whether Abraham was born when Terah was 70 years old, or 130. But in order that there may no doubt exist upon any mind, in relation to the object lying immediately before us, in presenting the present chronology, we will date the birth of Abraham at the latest period: that is, when Terah was 130 years old. It appears from this account, that from the flood to the birth of Abraham was 352 years.
48 Moses informs us that Shem lived, after he begat Arphaxad, 500. Gen. 11:11. This added to 100 years, which was his age when Arphaxed was born, makes him 600 years old when he died. Arphaxed lived, after he begat Salah, 403 years. 11:13. This added to 35 years, which was his age when Salah was born, makes him 438 years old when he died. Salah lived, after he begat Eber, 403 years. 11:15.— This added to 30 years, which was his age when Eber was born, makes him 433 years old when he died.— Eber lived, after he begat Peleg, 430 years. 11:17. This added to 34 years, which was his age when Peleg was born, makes him 464 years old. Peleg lived, after he begat Reu, 209 years. 11:19. This added to 30 years, which was his age when Reu was born, makes him 239 years old when he died. Reu lived, after he begat Serug, 207 years. Gen. 11:21. This added to 32 years, which was his age when Serug was born, makes him 239 years old when he died. Serug lived, after he begat Nahor, 200 years. Gen. 11:23. This added to 30 years, which was his age when Nahor was born, makes him 230 years old when he died. Nahor lived, after he begat Terah, 119 years. Gen. 11:25. This added to 29 years, which was his age when Terah was born, makes him 148 years when he died. Terah was 130 years old when Abraham was born, and is supposed to have lived 75 years after his birth: making him 205 years old when he died.
49 Agreeably to this last account, Peleg died in the 1996th year of the world, Nahor in the 1997th, and Noah in the 2006th. So that Peleg, in whose days the earth was divided, and Nahor, the grand-father of Abraham, both died before Noah: the former being 239 years old, and the latter 148. And who cannot but see, that they must have had a long and intimate acquaintance with Noah?
50 Reu died in the 2026th year of the world, Serug in the 2049th, Terah in the 2083rd, Arphaxed in the 2096th, Selah in the 2126th, Shem in the 2158th, Abraham in the 2183rd, and Eber in the 2187th: which was 4 years after Abraham’s death. And Eber was the fourth from Noah.
51 Nahor, Abraham’s brother, was 58 years old when Noah died, Terah 128, Serug 187, Reu 219, Eber 283, Salah 313, Arphaxed 344, and Shem 448.
52 It appears from this account, that Nahor, brother of Abraham, Terah, Nahor, Serug, Reu, Peleg, Eber, Salah, Arphaxed, Shem, and Noah, all lived on the earth at the same time. And that Abraham was 18 years old when Reu died, 41 when Serug and his brother Nahor died, 75 when Terah died, 88 when Arphaxed died, 118 when Salah died, 150 when Shem died, and that Eber lived 4 years after Abraham’s death. And that Shem, Arphaxed, Salah, Eber, Reu, Serug, Terah, and Nahor, the brother of Abraham, and Abraham, lived at the same time.— And that Nahor, brother of Abraham, Terah, Serug, Reu, Eber, Salah, Arphaxed, and Shem, were all acquainted with both Noah and Abraham.
53 We have now traced the chronology of the world, agreeably to the account given in our present bible, from Adam to Abraham, and have clearly determined, beyond the power of controversy, that there was no difficulty in preserving the knowledge of God in the world, from the creation of Adam, and the manifestation made to his immediate descendants, as set forth in the former part of this lecture, so that the students, in this class need not have any dubiety resting on their minds, on this subject; for they can easily see, that it is impossible for it to be otherwise; but that the knowledge of the existence of a God, must have continued from father to son, as a matter of tradition, at least. For we cannot suppose, that a knowledge of this important fact, could have existed in the mind of any of the before mentioned individuals, without their having made it known to their posterity.
54 We have now shown how it was that the first thought ever existed in the mind of any individual, that there was such a being as a God, who had created and did uphold all things: that it was by reason of the manifestation which he first made to our father Adam, when he stood in his presence, and conversed with him face to face, at the time of his creation.
55 Let us here observe, that after any portion of the human family are made acquainted with the important fact that there is a God who has created and does uphold all things, the extent of their knowledge, respecting his character and glory, will depend upon their diligence and faithfulness in seeking after him, until like Enoch the brother of Jared, and Moses, they shall obtain faith in God, and power with him to behold him face to face.
56 We have now clearly set forth how it is, and how it was, that God became an object of faith for rational beings; and also, upon what foundation the testimony was based, which excited the enquiry and diligent search of the ancient saints, to seek after and obtain a knowledge of the glory of God: and we have seen that it was human testimony, and human testimony only, that excited this enquiry, in the first instance in their minds—it was the credence they gave to the testimony of their fathers—this testimony having aroused their minds to enquire after the knowledge of God, the enquiry frequently terminated, indeed, always terminated, when rightly persued, in the most glorious discoveries, and eternal certainty.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Moksha wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:03 am
I bet the multiple Dr. Gees would all have Dr. Peterson as a pal and they would all receive postcards from Bora Bora and Lake Lucerne during Dr. Peterson's ambassadorial journeys for the restored Moon Cannon Church.
At the NOM board, Hagoth made an important correction:
Hagoth wrote:I believe the correct term is a gaggle of Gees. The collective noun for a group of Petersens is a candle. At least, that's the correct name for a herd of tapirs, so I just assumed it would apply.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Moksha wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:45 am
Hey, where is Shulem?

Never fear, Shulem is here and Shulem OWNS the Book of Abraham! :twisted:

I am the greatest Book of Abraham critic to have ever lived. So listen up.

I don’t care how fat the papyrus roll was!
I don’t care how long the papyrus roll was!
I don’t care how Joseph Smith translated the papyrus!

Let us pay respect to another who also understands the ultimate criticism of the false narrative of the Book of Abraham which Smith pretended to translate.

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baura, January 17, 2014 wrote:Noah's Flood and Tower of Babel make Mormonism fake:

An email I just sent a TBM relative of mine:

According to the Pearl of Great Price Student Manual

https://www.lds.org/manual/the-pearl-of ... m?lang=eng

we have the following chronology:

******BEGIN QUOTE*******

Who Is Abraham and When Did He Live?

Adam and Eve and the Fall (approximately 4000 B.C.), Enoch
(approximately 3000 B.C.), Noah and the Flood (approximately
2400 B.C.), and the tower of Babel (approximately 2200 B.C.)
preceded Abraham’s time. Abraham, who was born in about 2000
B.C., was the father of Isaac and the grandfather of Jacob,
whose name was changed to Israel. (See Bible Dictionary,
“chronology,” 635–36.)

******END QUOTE*******

My understanding is that, in Mormonism, Noah's flood is a real
event--that the entire earth was flooded and everyone on it
killed except for Noah, his sons, and their wives.

One problem is that there were continuous civilizations on the
earth from well before 2400 B.C. to well after 2400 B.C.

Narmer unified Egypt into a single nation around sometime
before 3000 B.C. There were separate kingdoms of upper and
lower Egypt before then. The "old Kingdom" continued until
around 2125 B.C. Egypt was a continuous civilization (with
intermediate periods of fractured governmental control) for
around 4000 years. There is no time for a world-wide flood.

The same can be said of Mesopotamian civilization. The
historical record for these civilizations extends back
centuries before 2400 B.C.

Of course things like geology and dendrochronology tells us
that there has been no such worldwide flood in the past 10,000
years.

The date of 2200 B.C. for the Tower of Babel is another
problem. The great pyramid had already been in existence for
300 years by then, and we have records going back nearly 1000
years before this date in separate languages. Mesopotamian and
Egyptian writing systems both came into existence around 3200 B.C.

The insistence of the literal reality of the flood and the
tower of Babel story, is just among the many reasons I can't
take Mormonism seriously.
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Apologetic misuse of chronology

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Pearl of Great Price Central wrote:One of Egypt’s oldest gods, Min was worshipped as early as the Pre-Dynastic Period (circa pre-3000 BC).

Pearl of Great Price Central acknowledges 3000 BC as a legitimate date for early dynastic Egyptian history. This, HOWEVER, does not match the revelations, scriptures, and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith regarding biblical chronology and Egypt’s making according to the narrative of the Book of Abraham. Informed apologists are aware that early Egypt predates Noah’s biblical flood by over 600 years. In spite of this, they cite conventional Egyptian chronology in order to make their apologetics look legitimate when in fact it does the exact opposite.

Shame on Pearl of Great Price Central and their deceptive scholars!
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Apologists ignore the Book of Abraham

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Book of Mormon Central wrote:Egyptian Language

The written language of the Book of Mormon appears to be an amalgamation of Hebrew and Egyptian. The Egyptian language is a northern Afro-Asiatic language closely related to the Berber and Semitic languages. It has the second longest history of any language (after Sumerian), having been written from c. 3200 BC to the Middle Ages and remaining as a spoken language for longer. The phases of ancient Egyptian are Old Egyptian, Middle Egyptian (Classical Egyptian), Late Egyptian, Demotic and Coptic. Egyptian writings do not show dialect differences before Coptic, but it was probably spoken in regional dialects around Memphis and later Thebes.

Hieroglyphic writing dates from c. 3000 BC, and is composed of hundreds of symbols. A hieroglyph can represent a word, a sound, or a silent determinative; and the same symbol can serve different purposes in different contexts. Hieroglyphs were a formal script, used on stone monuments and in tombs, that could be as detailed as individual works of art.

Book of Mormon Central acknowledges that ancient Egypt is much older than Noah and the biblical flood chronicled in the bible. It also acknowledges the hieroglyphic language as native to the Two Lands (Upper & Lower Egypt) and is indigenous to that land including plants, animals, and other things native to Egypt. Book of Mormon Central fails to explain how Egypt predates Ham and the Tower of Babel. The apologists dare not refute Smith who claimed Noah originated in ancient America and how the flood carried him across the globe and set him down on Ararat. The apologists confess that the Egyptian language (spoken & written) predates Noah.

All of this, of course, destroys the claims given in the Book of Abraham which dates Egypt to 2300 BC.
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Re: Apologetic misuse of chronology

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:12 pm
Pearl of Great Price Central wrote:One of Egypt’s oldest gods, Min was worshipped as early as the Pre-Dynastic Period (circa pre-3000 BC).

Pearl of Great Price Central acknowledges 3000 BC as a legitimate date for early dynastic Egyptian history. This, HOWEVER, does not match the revelations, scriptures, and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith regarding biblical chronology and Egypt’s making according to the narrative of the Book of Abraham. Informed apologists are aware that early Egypt predates Noah’s biblical flood by over 600 years. In spite of this, they cite conventional Egyptian chronology in order to make their apologetics look legitimate when in fact it does the exact opposite.

Shame on Pearl of Great Price Central and their deceptive scholars!
The core mode of thinking for fundamentalism is to keep knowledge separated. You mustn't combine knowledge because that destroys belief. It's why so many Mormons go into business school or law school. Very easy to keep your brain away from history or science in these fields.
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Re: Apologetic misuse of chronology

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Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:19 pm
The core mode of thinking for fundamentalism is to keep knowledge separated. You mustn't combine knowledge because that destroys belief.

I believe your statement is correct and it certainly was a point of contention for me when I was an apologist defending the Book of Abraham. I recall how John Gee answered me in an email warning how I could lose my testimony by overexerting my rational thinking on Book of Abraham problems. And he was right about that! I lost my testimony of the so-called restored gospel when I came to a full realization that Joseph Smith was pretending to be what he wasn’t and the early Mormons were wrong about everything concerning the papyrus and mummies in their possession. The so-called Spirit of the Lord was a joke. The Mormons were wrong on all accounts!

So, keeping knowledge in separate compartments and putting controversies on the backburner of faith is required practice for any and every Book of Abraham apologist. This includes John Gee who has worked hard to maintain his testimony in Joseph Smith in spite of the obvious fact that Smith didn’t know how to translate Egyptian, let alone explain the true origin of *how* and *when* ancient Egypt was first established.

Thank you for chiming in on this thread, Alphus and Omegus. It’s a pity that brother Philo Sofee has not bothered to pop in and express his thoughts and feelings on these matters. It’s readily apparent that all one need do to disprove the Book of Abraham is to quote Joseph Smith and cite his authority to condemn his revelations and prove his work false. It’s easy to demonstrate how chapter one of the Book of Abraham is utter nonsense and how Smith was simply borrowing wrong ideas from contemporary sources available to him.

Joseph Smith was wrong. Nothing can save the Book of Abraham, nothing.

Not even Ed Goble!
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

Post by Shulem »

To be honest, I care less and less what Mormons today think and believe. Modern Mormon beliefs are somewhat irrelevant in representing Joseph Smith because it doesn’t necessarily reflect or mirror the exact beliefs and testimonials of Joseph Smith and the original Mormons. Mormonism has evolved and the religion today is a mutated strain of the original trying to survive in a modern world.

What irks me somewhat is how Mormons today present the Book of Abraham in a false light. Apologetics for the Book of Abraham is utterly atrocious and deceptive in every way. This thread highlights the differences between the 3000 BC & 2300 BC dates and points the finger at the Church for using both to serve its own purposes in placating its members into thinking all is well.

But all is not well with the Book of Abraham and deceptive Mormon apologetics. Smith’s story has been proven a fraud in every way and there is nothing the Church can do to set things right other than to confess and admit that the Book of Abraham is sheer fiction.

I will continue to sound the alarm....
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