Off Topic Split from 33 Years With New Questions

[Pyreaux]

When Joseph Smith ordered the Nauvoo Expositor printing press to be destroyed, he had no idea of the consequences. He was still young and healthy and enjoyed a life of libertine indulgences.

The City Council ordered the Mayor, Joseph Smith to shut down the press, and it was legal. The outrage from Warsaw was not because of a newspaper of a city 30 miles away, it was a consequence of running for president, Govenor Ford thought Joseph was interfering the campaign of the Kentuckian Henry Clay. While Joseph may have not fully foreseen a political assassination, he knew perfectly the charge of inciting a riot to be tried in Warsaw was an assassination plot, he already escaped Nauvoo, and then returned to Nauvoo to surrender with a promise they leave Nauvoo alone, knowing he'd be killed, "like a lamb to the slaughter". Seems he did have a good idea of the consequences of surrender. He died a martyr for his cause, because he believed in it.

[Moksha]

When Joseph Smith ordered the Nauvoo Expositor printing press to be destroyed, he had no idea of the consequences. He was still young and healthy and enjoyed a life of libertine indulgences.

The City Council ordered the Mayor, Joseph Smith to shut down the press, and it was legal.

The City Council listened to Joseph's orders and not the other way around. Remember, he was the prophet, the mayor, the Commander of the Nauvoo Legion, and had recently appointed himself to be King and High Priest of the Earth. He communed with Jehovah and was the man in charge.

The outrage from Warsaw was not because of a newspaper of a city 30 miles away, it was a consequence of running for president, Govenor Ford thought Joseph was interfering the campaign of the Kentuckian Henry Clay. While Joseph may have not fully foreseen a political assassination, he knew perfectly the charge of inciting a riot to be tried in Warsaw was an assassination plot, he already escaped Nauvoo, and then returned to Nauvoo to surrender with a promise they leave Nauvoo alone, knowing he'd be killed, "like a lamb to the slaughter". Seems he did have a good idea of the consequences of surrender. He died a martyr for his cause, because he believed in it.

Even as King and High Priest of the Earth, Joseph couldn't see around corners. He didn't see that coming. The rest sounds like speculative apologetics. God would not ask Joseph to be a martyr when he had so many wives to look after, some of whom were but toddlers or not yet born.

[Imwashingmypirate]

The City Council ordered the Mayor, Joseph Smith to shut down the press, and it was legal.

The City Council listened to Joseph's orders and not the other way around. Remember, he was the prophet, the mayor, the Commander of the Nauvoo Legion, and had recently appointed himself to be King and High Priest of the Earth. He communed with Jehovah and was the man in charge.

The outrage from Warsaw was not because of a newspaper of a city 30 miles away, it was a consequence of running for president, Govenor Ford thought Joseph was interfering the campaign of the Kentuckian Henry Clay. While Joseph may have not fully foreseen a political assassination, he knew perfectly the charge of inciting a riot to be tried in Warsaw was an assassination plot, he already escaped Nauvoo, and then returned to Nauvoo to surrender with a promise they leave Nauvoo alone, knowing he'd be killed, "like a lamb to the slaughter". Seems he did have a good idea of the consequences of surrender. He died a martyr for his cause, because he believed in it.

Even as King and High Priest of the Earth, Joseph couldn't see around corners. He didn't see that coming. The rest sounds like speculative apologetics. God would not ask Joseph to be a martyr when he had so many wives to look after, some of whom were but toddlers or not yet born.

What? Lol

Are you winding us up or is this true?

[Moksha]

What? Lol

Are you winding us up or is this true?

Do you mean about the man who communed with Jehovah or the King and High Priest of the Earth? We have so many scholars on this board that we should defer to them.

[bill4long]

The City Council ordered the Mayor, Joseph Smith to shut down the press, and it was legal.

The City Council listened to Joseph's orders and not the other way around. Remember, he was the prophet, the mayor, the Commander of the Nauvoo Legion, and had recently appointed himself to be King and High Priest of the Earth. He communed with Jehovah and was the man in charge.

The outrage from Warsaw was not because of a newspaper of a city 30 miles away, it was a consequence of running for president, Govenor Ford thought Joseph was interfering the campaign of the Kentuckian Henry Clay. While Joseph may have not fully foreseen a political assassination, he knew perfectly the charge of inciting a riot to be tried in Warsaw was an assassination plot, he already escaped Nauvoo, and then returned to Nauvoo to surrender with a promise they leave Nauvoo alone, knowing he'd be killed, "like a lamb to the slaughter". Seems he did have a good idea of the consequences of surrender. He died a martyr for his cause, because he believed in it.

Even as King and High Priest of the Earth, Joseph couldn't see around corners. He didn't see that coming. The rest sounds like speculative apologetics. God would not ask Joseph to be a martyr when he had so many wives to look after, some of whom were but toddlers or not yet born.

His bro Hyrum (also a "prophet, seer and revelator") assured him everything would be okay. But when things turned sour, Joe had no problem firing his pistol at his assailants. (I have no problem with self-defense, but he was hardly a "lamb going to the slaughter" without a fight.)

[Imwashingmypirate]

The City Council listened to Joseph's orders and not the other way around. Remember, he was the prophet, the mayor, the Commander of the Nauvoo Legion, and had recently appointed himself to be King and High Priest of the Earth. He communed with Jehovah and was the man in charge.


Even as King and High Priest of the Earth, Joseph couldn't see around corners. He didn't see that coming. The rest sounds like speculative apologetics. God would not ask Joseph to be a martyr when he had so many wives to look after, some of whom were but toddlers or not yet born.

His bro Hyrum (also a "prophet, seer and revelator") assured him everything would be okay. But when things turned sour, Joe had no problem firing his pistol at his assailants. (I have no problem with self-defense, but he was hardly a "lamb going to the slaughter" without a fight.)

Oh my gosh... I've always read your user name as billabong.

[yellowstone123]

When Joseph Smith ordered the Nauvoo Expositor printing press to be destroyed, he had no idea of the consequences. He was still young and healthy and enjoyed a life of libertine indulgences.

The City Council ordered the Mayor, Joseph Smith to shut down the press, and it was legal. The outrage from Warsaw was not because of a newspaper of a city 30 miles away, it was a consequence of running for president, Govenor Ford thought Joseph was interfering the campaign of the Kentuckian Henry Clay. While Joseph may have not fully foreseen a political assassination, he knew perfectly the charge of inciting a riot to be tried in Warsaw was an assassination plot, he already escaped Nauvoo, and then returned to Nauvoo to surrender with a promise they leave Nauvoo alone, knowing he'd be killed, "like a lamb to the slaughter". Seems he did have a good idea of the consequences of surrender. He died a martyr for his cause, because he believed in it.

Thank you for bringing up issues of the area and the upcoming American Presidency. I really like this information. I read when Joseph Smith was killed Brigham Young was out giving speeches as to why Joseph should become president. Around the same time, Abraham Lincoln was also out giving speeches as to why Henry Clay should be President. But Clay was defeated by James Polk. I just received a biography on Polk. Reading Biographies of Presidents who lived at the same time as early Mormon leaders is fascinating. Those who became President were not helpless, a product of their time and culture and demonstrated it as they lived an honorable life, overcame pain, loss, defeat, and other obstacles before being inaugurated.

Death was very common in the 19th century which could be brought on suddenly.

Ordering the destruction of a printing press in Illinois turned out to be not good for Mormons in 1844. We know that Elijah Parish Lovejoy was killed in 1837 in Ohio, by Missourians for printing anti-slavery papers. He was protecting his printing press. Free Speech and a Free Press were important to the Founding Fathers because they knew if problems occurred, those two ideals would solve them.

Also one last point. I believe the printing press in Nauvoo, Illinois was not shut down but was destroyed. I believe Moksha said it correctly.

[Res Ipsa]

Split off topic posts from original thread. UR 4. RI.

[Pyreaux]

The City Council listened to Joseph's orders and not the other way around. Remember, he was the prophet, the mayor, the Commander of the Nauvoo Legion, and had recently appointed himself to be King and High Priest of the Earth. He communed with Jehovah and was the man in charge.

Even as King and High Priest of the Earth, Joseph couldn't see around corners. He didn't see that coming. The rest sounds like speculative apologetics.

The Nauvoo Charter granted the city council powers equal to the Illinois legislature within the jurisdiction of Nauvoo. Power was granted to the city council to pass ordinances for the order and welfare of the city. The city council declared the press a nuisance (which it was) and then ordered Smith, as Nauvoo's Mayor, to in turn order the city Marshall to destroy the paper and the press. Joseph Smith did nothing that a number of elected officials around the country didn't do, including destroying a public nuisance.

But it was illegal when taking property rights into consideration, which only means the owners could have sued for the damages, but they never did.

There is a free pdf online of a book detailing the conspiracy involving Thomas Ford and the Whig party. It is not apologetics, I think the authors try to present their material objectively, they in fact show they have an anti-Mormon sentiment when talking about later "Mormon vengeance" and the Mountain Meadows massacre. There is a plethora of documentation, factual information and a comprehensive study of the events. The authors successfully argue the assassination was result of conspiracy of local and state politicians.

Junius and Joseph: Presidential Politics and the Assassination of the First Mormon Prophet

Illinois Govenor, Thomas Ford, was himself part of the Whig Party conspiracy to murder Joseph Smith. In Ford's narrative in 'A History of Illinois' pretty much says Joseph Smith and the Saints got along very well in Illinois until Joseph got involved in state politics. It was determined that a Mormon prophet's candidacy might disrupt the outcome of the 1844 presidential election. Those involved were supporters of Kentuckian Henry Clay, the elder statesman of the American Whig party, and his 1844 bid for the American presidency. The Expositor was merely being used, by those plotting against the Prophet's life, as ammunition for an entirely different scheme.

Any assertion that the destruction of the Expositor was what began the mob violence that led to the deaths of Joseph Smith, is completely unfounded. The people in the mob were not even from Nauvoo. They were mostly from Warsaw. Joseph was not even held for the destruction of the Expositor. He was charged with treason for mustering up the Nauvoo Legion (a false charge in order that he could be held without bail). Joseph was politically assassinated by evil men for power. Any property rights violations, that were never even brought forth, had nothing to do with it.

William Law and others in Illinois were plotting. Dr. Wall Southwick in meeting he had attended in Carthage, Illinois, wherein the enemies of the Prophet had gathered together from every state in the Union but three because Joseph’s “views on government were widely circulated and took like wildfire.” According to Southwick, they believed that if the Prophet “did not get into the Presidential chair this election, he would be sure to the next time; and if Illinois and Missouri would join together and kill him, they would not be brought to justice for it.” Dr. Southwick’s statement suggests that the Prophet’s presidential campaign was definitely part of the cause for his assassination.

Joseph was charged with inciting a "riot" which was a (non-criminal) civil affair, and that same charge was unsubstantiated in Nauvoo municipal court since the destruction of the press had been orderly. Joseph and others consented to be brought before another court, headed by a (non-Mormon) justice of the peace, Daniel H. Wells. Wells again discharged them, but did not have the authority to acquit them. Joseph Smith then declares martial law in Nauvoo and calls out the militia to protect the city from anti-Mormon mobs.

Governor Ford writes to tell Joseph that he must face charges before the same judge that issued the writ for his arrest, because only this will appease the public (not the law) which was in a very hostile community. It was a death trap, which Joseph and Hyrum did foresee, so they left Nauvoo to seek refuge. Until they returned in order to protect the church from being despoiled and driven out if he did not, and proclaiming that he was going to his death. Despite Joseph and fifteen others receiving guarantees of safety and presented themselves in Carthage. They were freed on bail pending the October arrival of the circuit court.

However, Joseph and Hyrum were then jailed by a writ issued by Robert F. Smith, a Methodist minister, justice of the peace, and captain of the Carthage Greys militia. So once they stopped at Carthage, he was incarcerated there without bail, despite the Governor's promises of protection and a fair trial, Governor Ford allowed the Smiths to be imprisoned by their enemies on a wholly new charge of "treason" for having declared martial law in Nauvoo, a legal farce.

Stating that he had to "satisfy the people," and "had no doubt but that they would be immediately dismissed", and so did not keep his promise that the prisoners could go with him to Nauvoo. The Governor Ford ignored clear warnings of danger and disbands all the militia companies, except the hostile Carthage Greys, to guard the jail and took the most dependable troops with him to Nauvoo,

During the governor's absence, the discharged Warsaw militia company then attacks the jail. There were between one hundred and two hundred armed men whom blackened their faces with mud and gunpowder, and then stormed the jail. In less than two minutes, they overcame feigned resistance from the Greys (they had loaded their weapons with gunpowder but no bullets), the mob rushed upstairs, and started firing through the closed unlocked door of the cell keeper's bedroom.

I have no problem with self-defense, but he was hardly a "lamb going to the slaughter" without a fight.)

What exactly should a man say when he self-surrenders to a murderous army? He was clearly lamb when he surrendered and he makes it clear he knew he was going to die. He only fired back after they already started firing at him in a confined space, shot at his friends, and shot his brother in the face.

[Dr. Shades]

The Nauvoo Charter granted the city council powers equal to the Illinois legislature within the jurisdiction of Nauvoo. Power was granted to the city council to pass ordinances for the order and welfare of the city. The city council declared the press a nuisance (which it was) . . .

In what way was it a "nuisance?"