Book of Lehi and the 116-page Manuscript

[Valo]

Olive trees are often planted in and around vineyards for various reasons, including providing shade, natural pest control, and as a reminder of home for Mediterranean immigrants who started vineyards in places like California. In some cases, olive trees are planted alongside grapevines to offer an additional crop and to utilize the land efficiently.

Zenos is purported to be of ancient times, predating Lehi. Mediterranean lifestyles and crops in California have nothing to do with ancient Jews or Israel during the times of Solomon or thereafter. Orchards and vineyards are separate crops and both have their own purpose and function -- they are named accordingly. The Zenos account makers it clear there are many olive trees and the function thereof is a tree ORCHARD or an oliveyard. The parable mentions no vines or grapes. There is no wine included in the parable! There is no vineyard in the parable just as there is no king's name in Facsimile No. 3 and neither is there a principal waiter to serve wine in the Facsimile as Smith claimed in his faulty translations. Both accounts (Zenos & Facsimile 3) are mislabeled and are dead wrong.

What does MerriamWebster have to do with the price of tea in China let alone Zenos living in ancient Israel? The only dictionary you should consult for Joseph Smith is the one in which he had access to:

VIN'YARD , noun

A plantation of vines producing grapes; properly, an inclosure or yard for grape-vines.

The Bible shows how vineyards and orchards (oliveyards) are separate fields produced through husbandry and are named accordingly:

• Exodus 23:11 In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.

• Deuteronomy 22:9 Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled. (Lev 19:19 thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed)

• Joshua 24:13 And I have given you a land for which ye did not labour, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat.

• 1 Samuel 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.

In ancient times, olive trees were indeed planted near vineyards, particularly in the Mediterranean region. This practice was common due to the similar climatic requirements of both crops, which thrived on stony hillsides where other crops like vegetables and grains could not grow as vigorously. Olive trees provided support for the climbing vines, helping them to grab sunlight and produce fruit. Additionally, olive trees were used as trellis systems for the vines, although this method could create shaded areas under the canopy, which was not ideal for grape production. The tradition of planting olive trees and grapes together was part of a farming approach known as "coltura promiscua" or polyculture, where different crops were mixed in fields. This practice was brought to the New World by European settlers who established the American wine industry in the 19th century.

The word in the Book of Mormon is vineyard, not vinyard.

Vineyard also means a field of endeavor.

[Shulem]

The word in the Book of Mormon is vineyard, not vinyard.

Vineyard also means a field of endeavor.

Valo,

Please be advised that the 1828 Websters Dictionary defines the word as VIN'YARD having a single (1) definition: A plantation of vines producing grapes; properly, an inclosure or yard for grape-vines. I won't argue that there were different ways to spell the term back in Smith's day but the meaning remains the same. The modern definition you cite as a field of endeavor is irrelevant. We are only concerned with the actual meaning of the word used anciently which is the same definition used in Smith's times or in Smith's dictionary.

Now, as a matter of interest, you may confirm for yourself how the word in question was in fact spelled vinyard (VINYARD) multiple times in early church writings beginning in 1830 by scribes John Whitmer, Sidney Rigdon, Frederick G. Williams, and others; available for view at the Joseph Smith Papers:

27 Results for “vinyard”

[Valo]

The word in the Book of Mormon is vineyard, not vinyard.

Vineyard also means a field of endeavor.

Valo,

Please be advised that the 1828 Websters Dictionary defines the word as VIN'YARD having a single (1) definition: A plantation of vines producing grapes; properly, an inclosure or yard for grape-vines. I won't argue that there were different ways to spell the term back in Smith's day but the meaning remains the same. The modern definition you cite as a field of endeavor is irrelevant. We are only concerned with the actual meaning of the word used anciently which is the same definition used in Smith's times or in Smith's dictionary.

Now, as a matter of interest, you may confirm for yourself how the word in question was in fact spelled vinyard (VINYARD) multiple times in early church writings beginning in 1830 by scribes John Whitmer, Sidney Rigdon, Frederick G. Williams, and others; available for view at the Joseph Smith Papers:

27 Results for “vinyard”

Anciently olive trees were planted alongside with vines or in a vineyard because it works. Looks like you abandoned that argument and have focused on the one you think is stronger!

As to your "stronger" argument it appears you are hanging on the thread that vineyard somehow only recently began to mean "a sphere of endeavor" and that Websters dictionary is the only relevant dictionary available for this time frame. Okay.

The term "vineyard" has been used to refer to a tract of land where grapes are grown since Old English times. However, its meaning expanded to include "a sphere of endeavor" or "a field of activity" over time. According to the provided context, this expansion of meaning occurred between 1300-50, during the Middle English period.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition, also supports this timeframe, suggesting that the term "vineyard" began to be used figuratively to describe a sphere of endeavor, such as "toiled in the vineyard of publishing," around the same period.

Also vineyard has meant "a ground planted with vines" not grape vines, just vines, since before Joseph Smith was born.

https://books.google.com/books?id=z3kKA ... rd&f=false

[Marcus]

Valo,

Please be advised that the 1828 Websters Dictionary defines the word as VIN'YARD having a single (1) definition: A plantation of vines producing grapes; properly, an inclosure or yard for grape-vines. I won't argue that there were different ways to spell the term back in Smith's day but the meaning remains the same. The modern definition you cite as a field of endeavor is irrelevant. We are only concerned with the actual meaning of the word used anciently which is the same definition used in Smith's times or in Smith's dictionary.

Now, as a matter of interest, you may confirm for yourself how the word in question was in fact spelled vinyard (VINYARD) multiple times in early church writings beginning in 1830 by scribes John Whitmer, Sidney Rigdon, Frederick G. Williams, and others; available for view at the Joseph Smith Papers:

27 Results for “vinyard”

Anciently olive trees were planted alongside with vines or in a vineyard because it works. Looks like you abandoned that argument and have focused on the one you think is stronger!

As to your "stronger" argument it appears you are hanging on the thread that vineyard somehow only recently began to mean "a sphere of endeavor" and that Websters dictionary is the only relevant dictionary available for this time frame. Okay.

The term "vineyard" has been used to refer to a tract of land where grapes are grown since Old English times. However, its meaning expanded to include "a sphere of endeavor" or "a field of activity" over time. According to the provided context, this expansion of meaning occurred between 1300-50, during the Middle English period.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition, also supports this timeframe, suggesting that the term "vineyard" began to be used figuratively to describe a sphere of endeavor, such as "toiled in the vineyard of publishing," around the same period.

Also vineyard has meant "a ground planted with vines" not grape vines, just vines, since before Joseph Smith was born.

https://books.google.com/books?id=z3kKA ... rd&f=false

So, just to be clear, it seems your argument is that the story in Jacob 5 was written later than the 1300s, in order to make the vocabulary work? Even though Joseph Smith was supposedly translating ancient documents, written long before that?

Did Zenos have a ghost committee also?

[Shulem]

Valo,

It's my fault for allowing this thread (116-page Manuscript) to venture off into a lost vineyard. After this, would you mind if we continue this discussion down in the Terrestrial forum where my thread Vineyard vs. Orchard & Oliveyard focuses strictly on this subject? However, if you don't mind, I would like to comment on your last post and will do so here. I may decide to copy this post and paste it in the other thread.

Anciently olive trees were planted alongside with vines or in a vineyard because it works. Looks like you abandoned that argument and have focused on the one you think is stronger!

I have no problem with planting vineyards and oliveyards "ALONGSIDE" of each other whether in ancient times or today. But I do have a problem with planting an olive grove (orchard) *in* an ancient Jewish vineyard because the Law of Moses forbids it (Deut 22:9, Lev 19:19). And we can assume that Zenos followed the Law of Moses and kept that charge strictly. You will recall that pious Nephites & Lamanites were strict (Alma 30:3, Hel 12:1) to keep the Law of Moses and would have followed suit in maintaining husbandry according to the Law of Moses which was contained on the brass plates.

As to your "stronger" argument it appears you are hanging on the thread that vineyard somehow only recently began to mean "a sphere of endeavor" and that Websters dictionary is the only relevant dictionary available for this time frame. Okay.

The term "vineyard" has been used to refer to a tract of land where grapes are grown since Old English times. However, its meaning expanded to include "a sphere of endeavor" or "a field of activity" over time. According to the provided context, this expansion of meaning occurred between 1300-50, during the Middle English period.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition, also supports this timeframe, suggesting that the term "vineyard" began to be used figuratively to describe a sphere of endeavor, such as "toiled in the vineyard of publishing," around the same period.

How hardly would Moses or Zenos be obliged to harken to what Gentiles in 1300 AD thought about vineyard husbandry! The Law of Moses was the standard! Valo, your apologetic reasoning is fatally flawed.

Also vineyard has meant "a ground planted with vines" not grape vines, just vines, since before Joseph Smith was born.

https://books.google.com/books?id=z3kKA ... rd&f=false

Please note that your citation:

VINEYARD, (vin'-yard) A ground planted with vines.

Does not include olives because trees don't grow on vines!

[Shulem]

So, just to be clear, it seems your argument is that the story in Jacob 5 was written later than the 1300s, in order to make the vocabulary work? Even though Joseph Smith was supposedly translating ancient documents, written long before that?

Did Zenos have a ghost committee also?

Thank you so much for chiming in, Marcus. I really appreciate it!

It's kinda my fault for getting sidetracked in this thread which is about the lost 116 pages, but that's okay. It's probably noteworthy to suggest the parable of Zenos was not in the lost 116 page manuscript. I think it was a special feature Smith added when resuming his translation storytelling while Cowdery dutifully recorded Joseph's babblings -- imagine having to listen to the mumblings of Jacob 5 while Joseph's face is buried in a hat! It's bad enough to have to read that awful chapter but I can't imagine having to listen to Smith narrate it. Poor Oliver! Can you imagine?

Valo referred us to the Johnson and Walker's Dictionary of the English Language which was published in London in 1755. Valo noted how the definition of vineyard is "A ground planted with vines." And that is my point because the only thing on the ground in *a* vineyard is plants that have vines! Olive trees do not grow on vines and do not belong in the confines of a vineyard. Vineyards and oliveyards grow different fruits within their own yards. Right?

[Moksha]

Oh yeah, what if Valo drinks olive wine?

[Shulem]

Oh yeah, what if Valo drinks olive wine?

Then it wouldn't be kosher and in keeping with the Law of Moses and the parable of Zenos.

[Moksha]

Oh yeah, what if Valo drinks olive wine?

Then it wouldn't be kosher and in keeping with the Law of Moses and the parable of Zenos.

Yikes! So there is no way around vineyards being for vines.

[Shulem]

Yikes! So there is no way around vineyards being for vines.

Moksha,

You are dealing with Shulem and who can refute me? You should know by now that when I lock something up it's a done deal.

Yes, a vineyard signifies a plot of land designated for vines.