The First Vision

[Shulem]

Joe said [June 16, 1844]:

It is altogether correct in the translation. Our text says, “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father.” The Apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for Paul says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Funny that Joe's own JST revision changed by dropping the "and" preceding "his father", which contradicts Joe's claim about our God having a God/Father above him. But Joe apparently forget that he did that as he proclaimed this gross error to the crowd in the grove.

Exactly that!

The 1832 New Testament Revision (JST) of John’s Book of Revelation does not reflect Smith’s later commentary of the plurality of gods made in 1844 about the same verse in question. Smith failed to keep his 1844 plural god translation straight with his 1832 version which exemplifies how the “Father” *is* the Father of Christ rather than the Father having a Father as expressed in his corrupt 1844 teachings:

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father

& hath made us kings & Priests unto God, his Father.

Busted!

[Shulem]

My object was to preach the scriptures, and preach the doctrine they contain, there being a God above, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private. John was one of the men, and apostles declare they were made kings and priests unto God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It reads just so in the Revelation, Hence the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible. It stands beyond the power of controversy. A wayfaring man, though a fool, need not err therein.

That idea is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Bible, the Christian Bible, the church Fathers, Rabbinical Judaism, Philo's writings, the gnostic writings, the Kabbala, or any other Judeo/Christian text, however orthodox or heterodox. Joe was utterly full of shinola.

If Abraham reasoned thus— if Jesus Christ was the son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that he had a Father also.

And Mormons today are upset and wonder why the Christian world has a problem with Mormonism claiming to be Christianity! It’s NOT all over the face of the Bible and there is no God above the Father! That is corrupt Mormon doctrine that has nothing to do with the Bible. Do recall that we discussed this in your thread entitled The Root.

[Shulem]

I want to reason a little on this subject. I learned it by translating the papyrus which is now in my house.

Uh huh. That papyrus says no such thing.

If you can believe it, the so-called prophet Joseph Smith pretended to “translate” the papyrus by the gift and power of God afforded him by direct revelation:

• Behold, there shall be a record kept among you; and in it thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of your Lord Jesus Christ, D&C 21:1

• Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church. D&C 107:92

• I give unto you my servant Joseph to be a presiding elder over all my church, to be a translator, a revelator, a seer, and prophet. D&C 124:125

And yet, we can PROVE Joseph Smith was a false translator who pretended to translate by the power of God because the Book of Abraham and all the translation materials and documents associated with Smith’s translations are 100% false.

We know the papyrus is what caused Smith to shift from the doctrine of one God to the plurality of Gods.

I testify and know with all my mind and heart that Joseph Smith was a liar. I defy the whole Mormon church to try and refute me!

The Church today is a lost cause. Modern Mormonism really is no worse or better than original Mormonism. Every member of the Church would be better off to leave and begin their lives anew.

Start today!

[Shulem]

Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. “Father, I pray not for the world, but I pray for them which thou hast given me.” “Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we are.” All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.

Even when I was a TBM, I thought this was a rather crass, asinine thing to say, even if he were correct.

Joseph Smith created his own monster for the people of Nauvoo and his words are just as real today as they were then.

My response?

THE CHURCH OF
A GOD ABOVE, THE FATHER OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ
OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

PS. The board spell check does not allow the name Jesus Christ to be capitalized which is perfectly fitting seeing he is the low God on the totem pole. Jesus bows his knees to his Father as his Father bows his knees to his Father and so on forever, infinite gods that cannot be numbered, quantified, or visualized because nothing can contain the infinite.

Again, busted!

[LittleNipper]

Even when I was a TBM, I thought this was a rather crass, asinine thing to say, even if he were correct.

Joseph Smith created his own monster for the people of Nauvoo and his words are just as real today as they were then.

My response?

THE CHURCH OF
A GOD ABOVE, THE FATHER OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ
OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

PS. The board spell check does not allow the name Jesus Christ to be capitalized which is perfectly fitting seeing he is the low God on the totem pole. Jesus bows his knees to his Father as his Father bows his knees to his Father and so on forever, infinite gods that cannot be numbered, quantified, or visualized because nothing can contain the infinite.

Again, busted!

It must be completely understood that Christ took on human form and the persona of a servant, as found in Philippians 2:7
but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.

Jesus remains the image of GOD. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seekth such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. - John 4:23-24

Colossians 1:12-20 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

[Shulem]

It must be completely understood that Christ took on human form and the persona of a servant, as found in Philippians 2:7
but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.

Joseph Smith completely understood that concept as taught by St. Paul and the very doctrine is explained in the Book of Mormon and Philippians 2:7 is quoted in the Lectures on Faith and published in early LDS periodicals.

Jesus remains the image of GOD.

So to see Christ is to see God, and Smith claimed to see him (Lord of glory) when he was 14 years old. Go figure.

What about you LittleNipper, have you seen Jesus, yet?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. - John 4:23-24

That was the position of the early LDS church and was preached as such at the pulpit. So, in that sense, the Mormons were just like any other Christian sect.

[LittleNipper]

It must be completely understood that Christ took on human form and the persona of a servant, as found in Philippians 2:7
but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.

Joseph Smith completely understood that concept as taught by St. Paul and the very doctrine is explained in the Book of Mormon and Philippians 2:7 is quoted in the Lectures on Faith and published in early LDS periodicals.

Jesus remains the image of GOD.

So to see Christ is to see God, and Smith claimed to see him (Lord of glory) when he was 14 years old. Go figure.

What about you LittleNipper, have you seen Jesus, yet?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. - John 4:23-24

That was the position of the early LDS church and was preached as such at the pulpit. So, in that sense, the Mormons were just like any other Christian sect.

So, what don't I get.. The Father is SPIRIT. And the SPIRIT is INVISIBLE. So how did even a 14 year old boy claim he saw the Father and the Son standing together? John 6:46
46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

[Shulem]

So, what don't I get.. The Father is SPIRIT. And the SPIRIT is INVISIBLE.

The VI Lecture on Faith in the 1835 D&C accounts for the invisibility of God (“him who is invisible”) which at that time demonstrates Smith’s doctrinal belief of the Father being invisible.

So how did even a 14 year old boy claim he saw the Father and the Son standing together?

The 14 year old boy made no such claim! The claim was made much later in the 1838 version of the First Vision.

It may well be the use of Entheogens played a major part in spiritual experiences had by young Joseph.

[Brack]

So, what don't I get.. The Father is SPIRIT. And the SPIRIT is INVISIBLE. So how did even a 14 year old boy claim he saw the Father and the Son standing together? John 6:46
46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Joseph Smith didn't believe that the members of the Godhead were three separate beings before 1835.
The Book of Mormon also states that the Father is Spirit.

Mosiah 15:
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

[Brack]

During the "translation" of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith believed that the Father and the Son are basically the same person.

1st Nephi 11: (1830 Edition)
21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father.

1st Nephi 13: (1830 Edition)
40 ...that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto Him, or they cannot be saved.

Mosiah 15:
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Mosiah 16:
15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

We know that Joseph Smith was familiar with Isaiah 9:6 since that verse was copied into the Book of Mormon as 2nd Nephi 19:6. But was Smith also familiar with Matthew Henry's commentary of that verse about the "everlasting Father"???

Matthew Henry wrote:

[3.] He is the everlasting Father, or the Father of eternity; he is God, one with the Father, who is from everlasting to everlasting. He is the author of everlasting life and happiness to them, and so is the Father of a blessed eternity to them. He is the Father of the world to come (so the LXX. reads it), the father of the gospel-state, which is put in subjection to him, not to the angels, Heb 2 5. He was, from eternity, Father of the great work of redemption: his heart was upon it; it was the product of his wisdom as the counsellor, of his love as the everlasting Father.