Conditional donation

[_vessr]

Don't give tithing to the Church. They aren't being accountable for it. Give 10% in charity to others instead and you are paying full tithe. And of course, if God shows up (or a man of God does and God tells you he is a man of God), then certainly offer whatever aid he requires. Otherwise, I'd just honestly pay tithing as I stated and you'll be fine.

Contribution doesn't necessarily have to be tithing. Any donation can be given. We are talking about conditional donation with is allowed on all non-profit organization. We certainly can give donation to any charity. But here we're talking about conditional donations. By definition a gift is completed when funds are transferred from Donor to Donee. The conditions to be met by donee are not likely to happen in the lifetime of the donor for tax purposes thus it's tax deductible.

However, I'm curious as to the legal implication of this stipulation when the actual donation gets deposited into the Church account (with the notations above). Does the Donor have legal standing to request refund in the event the two stipulations were exercised (ie, voluntary resignation or excommunication). This is more of a legal issue and maybe the lawyers in this forum could chime in and give their opinion without giving legal advice (as a professional).

Unfortunately, most states prohibit lawyers from giving their opinion on a legal matter, unless they are licenced in the applicable state, even if they are trying not to give legal advice and even if there is no remuneration.

But below is some general information which is allowed to be passed on as long as no comment is applied to it by a lawyer. But non-lawyers are welcome to try to figure this out without fear of losing their license to be a lawyer, which they do not possess anyway:

1. Conditional endorsement. …the endorser imposes some condition upon the transferee, e.g., Pay Adam Smith upon the satisfactory performance of his contract, (signed) Jane White. Where an endorsement is conditional, a party required to pay the instrument may make payment to the endorsee or his transferee, whether the condition has been fulfilled or not; but any person to whom an instrument so endorsed is negotiated will hold the same, or the proceeds thereof, subject to the rights of the person endorsing conditionally.
The conditional endorsement is an unqualified endorsement dependent upon the condition's fulfillment, and the endorser thereof thus makes all the warranties, if the condition is fulfilled, specified in Section 3-417, Uniform Commercial Code. Qualified endorsements are of two types and constitute the endorser a mere assignor of title to the instrument:

Qualified endorsement Without Recourse, or similar wording.

The qualified endorsement does not destroy the negotiability of the instrument. The without recourse endorser makes the limited warranties found in Section 3-417, Uniform Commercial Code. A qualified endorsement is one directing it to be paid to a specific person or to be otherwise restricted, such as an indication of "for deposit only". If no qualifying language accompnies the signature, it is called a blank endorsement and payable to the holder.

Restrictive endorsement. A restrictive endorsement is a blank or special endorsement accompanied by words which either (1) prohibit the further negotiation of the instrument; or (2) constitute the endorsee the agent of the endorser; or (3) vest the title in the endorsee in trust for or to the use of some other person.

A restrictive endorsement is an endorsement signed on the back of a check, note or bill of exchange which restricts to whom the paper may be transferred. In addition to holder's signature, it includes a restriction on how the paper may be used by transferee. Only the payee can write a restrictive endorsement. A restrictive endorsement confers upon the endorsee the rights to (1) receive payment of the instrument; (2) bring any action thereon that the endorser could bring; (3) transfer his rights as such endorsee, where the form of the endorsement authorizes him to do so. All subsequent endorsees acquire only the title of the first endorsee under the restrictive endorsement.

The restrictive endorser is a qualified endorser, and makes the limited warranties found in Section 3-417, Uniform Commercial Code.
For further details and incidents of endorsements, see Article 3, Part 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/e/endorsement/

[_moksha]

What would the effect of this if members start to do this in large numbers?

Excommunications, withholding TR's, no priesthood advancement, releases from callings, etc.

What about lightning bolts or at least lack of assistance in finding their car keys?

[_bcspace]

OK so you mentioned excommunication which is one of the events stipulated in the conditions above, if ever. Once that is done, then member (based on the stipulation) have to right to request refund of all donations, again assuming the church deposited the noted donations into the Church bank account

.

Sure. Anyone can request anything.

What about lightning bolts or at least lack of assistance in finding their car keys?

The user added stipulations would also have to be noticed. Having done the tithing receipts myself once upon a time, it might take a while. We are in a hurry to get home for dinner.

[_Kittens_and_Jesus]

What about lightning bolts or at least lack of assistance in finding their car keys?

No wonder I have so much trouble finding my car keys, I never paid a full tithe!

[_Molok]

On the back of their tithing check, the following words are written:
“SUBJECT TO REFUND UPON REQUEST (SEE TERMS AND CONDITIONS).”

They said when they give the donations to their Bishops (or counselors), the check and the tithing receipts are enclosed with the following information:
TERMS AND CONDITIONS:
· This donation is a conditional donation
· This conditional donation is given voluntarily and will be used by the Church as it sees fit
· The right to exercise for a complete refund of all conditional donations will never be exercise by this member while membership in the Church remains in good status.
· This member reserves the right to exercise a complete refund of all conditional donations upon termination of membership in the Church.
o Upon voluntary termination (resignation) of membership in the Church, this member reserves the right to exercise a request for a complete refund of all conditional donations.
o In the event of an excommunication action, this member reserves the right to exercise a request for a complete refund of all donations.
· All donations are conditional donations, unless otherwise noted.

What would the effect of this if members start to do this in large numbers? Would it be considered unfaithfullness on the part of one doing this?

I would be shocked if this was in any way legally binding.

[_bcspace]

I would be shocked if this was in any way legally binding.

It's not. Which is why I said anyone can request anything. Whether or not the request will be granted is another story entirely. In all likelihood, if the the "terms and conditions" were noticed, the check would be returned, the event noted and remembered by the Bishop, and ultimately the person would not be counted as a full tithe payer and be denied TR.

[_Themis]

On the back of their tithing check, the following words are written:
“SUBJECT TO REFUND UPON REQUEST (SEE TERMS AND CONDITIONS).”

They said when they give the donations to their Bishops (or counselors), the check and the tithing receipts are enclosed with the following information:
TERMS AND CONDITIONS:
· This donation is a conditional donation
· This conditional donation is given voluntarily and will be used by the Church as it sees fit
· The right to exercise for a complete refund of all conditional donations will never be exercise by this member while membership in the Church remains in good status.
· This member reserves the right to exercise a complete refund of all conditional donations upon termination of membership in the Church.
o Upon voluntary termination (resignation) of membership in the Church, this member reserves the right to exercise a request for a complete refund of all conditional donations.
o In the event of an excommunication action, this member reserves the right to exercise a request for a complete refund of all donations.
· All donations are conditional donations, unless otherwise noted.

What would the effect of this if members start to do this in large numbers? Would it be considered unfaithfullness on the part of one doing this?

I would be shocked if this was in any way legally binding.

There certainly would be some legal issues here, which is why the church would just not take the donations. What he posts is also fairly vague. Organizations that accept donations write their own rules, within the laws of the land, regarding donations. If you are fine with their rules then donate. If not, then find somewhere else to donate. If you are an active member trying this, you will probably find yourself in some trouble with the church, and you will probably not get a TR renewed.

[_Molok]

There certainly would be some legal issues here, which is why the church would just not take the donations. What he posts is also fairly vague.

You think so? The thing is written like a contract, wouldn't the church have to agree to these rules for it to be binding? They don't say "By depositing this check you are agreeing to the terms and conditions I have laid out" or anything like that, and it's not endorsed by a notary republic or anything, so, they might as well draw a unicorn on the back of their check.

[_vessr]

There certainly would be some legal issues here, which is why the church would just not take the donations. What he posts is also fairly vague.

You think so? The thing is written like a contract, wouldn't the church have to agree to these rules for it to be binding? They don't say "By depositing this check you are agreeing to the terms and conditions I have laid out" or anything like that, and it's not endorsed by a notary republic or anything, so, they might as well draw a unicorn on the back of their check.

Yes, the Church would have to be willing to accept the check, in which case it might be binding, hypothetically.

I will summarize what may be the relevant facts (not all the facts as provided are relevant) and then provide a response that I am NOT offering as legal advice in any jurisdiction, with or without remuneration, but for information purposes only, based on a hypothetical question with a hypothetical answer that (again) may not be relied on as legal advice:

Assume that a member of the Church is seeking to make a “Conditional Donation” that has the following stipulations:

On the back of his ortheir tithing check, the following words are written:
“SUBJECT TO REFUND UPON REQUEST (SEE TERMS AND CONDITIONS).”
Separately written are the following TERMS AND CONDITIONS:

. This donation is a conditional donation
. Upon voluntary termination (resignation) of membership in the Church, this member reserves the right to exercise a request for a complete refund of all conditional donations.
. In the event of an excommunication action, this member reserves the right to exercise a request for a complete refund of all donations.
The question is asked in terms of “unfaithfulness”; but I will answer it in terms of enforceability, hypothetically, for information purposes only.

The above might be considered a “conditional endorsement” or “qualified endorsement” or “restrictive endorsement, depending on how the check is written and the law of the applicable jurisdiction.

If person (A) writes a check to another person (B) and then, on the back of the check, writes a condition such as, “Pay (C) the amount of this check if he does the dishes satisfactorily,” A could then sign his or her name underneath the condition written and the check could be deposited by B, and then B would be responsible for using his or her own funds to pay C, once the condition is met. B held the funds in the amount of the check conditionally.

Hypothetically, the Church (B) could accept a check from a member (A) with such an endorsement to pay A if the conditions are met. If the Church accepts the check, then the endorsement could be binding on the Church, hypothetically. But this assumes that the Church would be willing to accept the check. It likely would not and would return the check to A.

[_Themis]

There certainly would be some legal issues here, which is why the church would just not take the donations. What he posts is also fairly vague.

You think so? The thing is written like a contract, wouldn't the church have to agree to these rules for it to be binding? They don't say "By depositing this check you are agreeing to the terms and conditions I have laid out" or anything like that, and it's not endorsed by a notary republic or anything, so, they might as well draw a unicorn on the back of their check.

I did say it was vague, but I imagine the argument would be that it is implied that by accepting the money you are also accepting their terms and condition. I'm not sure a court would rule in their favor, but then I doubt the church would take it in the first place.