ldsfaqs wrote:Anti-mormon "truth" is not actually the truth. It is the perversion of it.
If anti-mormon "truths" about the history of the Church were actually true, those of us who are not party liners, who have been and are independent thinkers and experiencers of life, we simply would not be Mormon. Those of us who know the other side, know evil, know there is no truth in anti-mormon versions of what is Mormonism.
We are Mormon BECAUSE we have no interest in man made religion, that is foolishness and lacking in truth and logic.
I am so glad someone here knows the truth. Can you tell me where I can find a Lamanite? I would also like to see a real Book of Mormon Archaelogical site. You know, like the real Biblical sites in the old world. Then, a few Egyptologists or Linguists who use Joseph Smiths Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar.
Nothing big, just simple requests that should be easy for one so exalted as yourself to provide.
“If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing." Ensign/2012/12
Albion wrote:Bhodi, I'm not quite sure just what you are disagreeing with. If you are Mormon you will, of course, argue that Mormon beliefs such as baptism for the dead and degrees of glory are Biblical. But without opening those discussions yet again, to Christian "orthodoxy" they most certainly are not no matter how you might argue them.
That is likely true, but the problem is that modern Christian "orthodoxy" is hardly the definitive word on the history of Christianity. This is the problem, not that many Mainstream Christians would disagree with Mormon doctrine, but that they fail to understand that their own doctrine is hardly the definitive word on the subject. The spectrum of Christian beliefs is fairly wide. I know no Mormons who would exclude someone from the Christian nomen based on their beliefs, but the converse is hardly true. More often than not, I find that those restricting Christianity to a set series of beliefs are generally the less well educated.
ldsfaqs wrote:Anti-mormon "truth" is not actually the truth. It is the perversion of it.
If anti-mormon "truths" about the history of the Church were actually true, those of us who are not party liners, who have been and are independent thinkers and experiencers of life, we simply would not be Mormon. Those of us who know the other side, know evil, know there is no truth in anti-mormon versions of what is Mormonism.
We are Mormon BECAUSE we have no interest in man made religion, that is foolishness and lacking in truth and logic.
A good friend, a parish priest, said to me once: "Where people are, it shuts humanly. And we can say that we can be lucky if the devil remains outside. Many of the things which report former Mormons are true. The Mountain Meadows Massacre and the Danites ; or the long concealed polygamy. It shows me that the LDS is a religion led by people. And this often was not at the decisions of the local or worldwide church leaders present the spirit of God. For me the LDS is one of many churches. With some which are good; but also other which is not.
“People generally quarrel because they cannot argue.” --- G.K. Chesterton
It is the only relevant debate on the issue of whether or not Mormonism fits under the Christian umbrella. - As you say, Mormonism might be willing to accept orthodoxy as fitting under the umbrella they define but it certainly has no place on Joseph Smith's pathway to the imaginary Celestial Kingdom. Your ecumenism rings hollow, I think.
Albion wrote:It is the only relevant debate on the issue of whether or not Mormonism fits under the Christian umbrella. - As you say, Mormonism might be willing to accept orthodoxy as fitting under the umbrella they define but it certainly has no place on Joseph Smith's pathway to the imaginary Celestial Kingdom. Your ecumenism rings hollow, I think.
If the umbrella is understood in its full context, Mormonism is certainly within its branches. The mistake you make is assuming that the umbrella is of Mormonism's design. The Chrisitan umbrella exists completely independent of Mormonism, it simply is. Another problem is the level of background in Christian history, which is sadly minimal in most cases. Several mainstream Christian scholars have lamented the death of the educated Christian in recent years. Most people can quote John 3:16, but rarely John 3:15 of 3:17.
I made reference to two umbrellas...the Christian one and the one defined by Mormonism. Mormonism does not fit under the first and despite the kindly face Mormons like to display there is only room for others under their umbrella if they conform to the Mormon model...warm greetings and invites to "come and share your truths" not withstanding. Christianity makes no bones about its exclusion of Mormonism....Mormonism pretends there is room and invites under false pretenses. You will hopefully excuse me if I take your point on the claim of Christians being uneducated as some kind of boast that the average Mormon is somehow better educated on scripture. Sorry...just not my experience.
Albion wrote:I made reference to two umbrellas...the Christian one and the one defined by Mormonism. Mormonism does not fit under the first and despite the kindly face Mormons like to display there is only room for others under their umbrella if they conform to the Mormon model...warm greetings and invites to "come and share your truths" not withstanding. Christianity makes no bones about its exclusion of Mormonism....Mormonism pretends there is room and invites under false pretenses. You will hopefully excuse me if I take your point on the claim of Christians being uneducated as some kind of boast that the average Mormon is somehow better educated on scripture. Sorry...just not my experience.
Given a historical understanding of Christianity, and the spectrum of Christian beliefs, there is no way that Mormonism can be excluded. Are you claiming otherwise? Have you read Bart Ehrman?
Ehrman's opinions and theories are interesting but have no current relevance to the position of Mormonism today relative to the Christian church. Mormonism is viewed as standing outside orthodox Christianity today by the vast majority of Christendom. It is a place of its own choosing almost from its beginning when Joseph Smith categorized Christian churches and their believers as "an abomination" and "corrupt".
Albion wrote:Ehrman's opinions and theories are interesting but have no current relevance to the position of Mormonism today relative to the Christian church. Mormonism is viewed as standing outside orthodox Christianity today by the vast majority of Christendom. It is a place of its own choosing almost from its beginning when Joseph Smith categorized Christian churches and their believers as "an abomination" and "corrupt".
Have you read Ehrman? His book "Lost Christianities" discusses the wide swath of Christian beliefs. Given that spectrum, there is no way to conclude that what you call “Christendom” is anything but a very narrow slice of the Christian spectrum. What you consider “orthodox” is a very limited definition.