Man is as intelligent as God

[_Bhodi]

Bhodi,

Even though some your stated experiences in the Middle East are not common to my experience (including the smell of a burned out souk and setting with a fox at the edge of a fire in the Sahara) I have not called what you say into question.

If you have not been in business in the Middle East and have not worked there on consulting contracts, then perhaps you should consider that you do not have the experience to make reasonable comments about hos this is best accomplished.

First of all, to us, $5,000 per month for a hotel is not a "boatload" of money. You have no way to judge whether $5,000 a month for a hotel makes economic sense unless you know what the trade-off is.

In order to credibly make that statement on this issue, you would need to know what our hourly or daily charge out rates is in country and I have the feeling that, if I told you, you would not believe that either.

Suffice it to say that we do understand the economics of our business. We negotiate rates for local living and transportation expenses separate from salary, and it makes a great deal of economic sense to pay north of $5,000 a month for a hotel room if it allows us to sustain a seven day a week work schedule week after week (which is exactly what it does).

If we can show that an apartment rental is far, far, far less than $5k a month (which is easy), and you claim that your company decided to spend the $5k anyway...

Please explain how that makes sense.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Dude. "Bhodi". Seriously.

C'mon, man. 'Fess up.

- Doc

[_Bhodi]

Dude. "Bhodi". Seriously.

C'mon, man. 'Fess up.

- Doc

I ask again, there is nothing to "fess up" to. What if you are wrong? How do you explain the paranoia and fear?

[_DrW]

Bhodi,

Even though some your stated experiences in the Middle East are not common to my experience (including the smell of a burned out souk and setting with a fox at the edge of a fire in the Sahara) I have not called what you say into question.

If you have not been in business in the Middle East and have not worked there on consulting contracts, then perhaps you should consider that you do not have the experience to make reasonable comments about hos this is best accomplished.

First of all, to us, $5,000 per month for a hotel is not a "boatload" of money. You have no way to judge whether $5,000 a month for a hotel makes economic sense unless you know what the trade-off is.

In order to credibly make that statement on this issue, you would need to know what our hourly or daily charge out rates is in country and I have the feeling that, if I told you, you would not believe that either.

Suffice it to say that we do understand the economics of our business. We negotiate rates for local living and transportation expenses separate from salary, and it makes a great deal of economic sense to pay north of $5,000 a month for a hotel room if it allows us to sustain a seven day a week work schedule week after week (which is exactly what it does).

If we can show that an apartment rental is far, far, far less than $5k a month (which is easy), and you claim that your company decided to spend the $5k anyway...

Please explain how that makes sense.

As I have indicated, there are times when we might have 3 or 4 foreign national professionals in country at one time. There are also times when we have no foreign nationals in country (like now, for example).

If a suitable apartment (in Qurum Beach, for example) costs $2,700 per month, and one still has to do their own cooking, cleaning and laundry (and so has fewer hours per week to work), how is it cheaper to maintain full time apartments for each foreign national than it is to put folks in hotel rooms, as needed?

And since you still don't know (or I would expect even have a clue) as to our hourly rates, how can you credibly make such statements. Are you sure you have an MBA?

[_Bhodi]

As I have indicated, there are times when we might have 3 or 4 foreign national professionals in country at one time. There are also times when we have no foreign nationals in country (like now, for example).

If a suitable apartment (in Qurum Beach, for example) costs $2,700 per month, and one still has to do their own cooking, cleaning and laundry (and so has fewer hours per week to work), how is it cheaper to maintain full time apartments for each foreign national than it is to put folks in hotel rooms, as needed?

And since you still don't know (or I would expect even have a clue) as to our hourly rates, how can you credibly make such statements. Are you sure you have an MBA?

Given the relatively cheap nature of a house keeper, and the savings (for every month of a hotel, you could pay for two months of an apartment) how does this make sense? I know plenty of companies that do just this, and knowing a little about financial reports, this makes NO sense. How would a company explain this to its board?

[_DrW]

As I have indicated, there are times when we might have 3 or 4 foreign national professionals in country at one time. There are also times when we have no foreign nationals in country (like now, for example).

If a suitable apartment (in Qurum Beach, for example) costs $2,700 per month, and one still has to do their own cooking, cleaning and laundry (and so has fewer hours per week to work), how is it cheaper to maintain full time apartments for each foreign national than it is to put folks in hotel rooms, as needed?

And since you still don't know (or I would expect even have a clue) as to our hourly rates, how can you credibly make such statements. Are you sure you have an MBA?

Given the relatively cheap nature of a house keeper, and the savings (for every month of a hotel, you could pay for two months of an apartment) how does this make sense? I know plenty of companies that do just this, and knowing a little about financial reports, this makes NO sense. How would a company explain this to its board?

First of all, my friend, apartment leases in Oman are for either 7 or 12 months, usually depending on the time of year you enter the lease. You should know this.

So if you want apartments for up to four people for a one year project, you are locked into something just under $130,000 ($129,600 to be exact) per year for housing costs. This is a lot more than the $35,000 or so I paid at $5000 per month for the seven months I was there plus what the other housing cost us. I am not sure what we paid for the other foreign nationals. I don't keep the books, but I can tell you for certain that our total project housing costs for 2012 were nowhere near $130K.

[_Bhodi]

First of all, my friend, apartment leases in Oman are for either 7 or 12 months, usually depending on the time of year you enter the lease. You should know this.

So if you want apartments for up to four people for a one year project, you are locked into something just under $130,000 ($129,600 to be exact) per year for housing costs. This is a lot more than the $35,000 or so I paid at $5000 per month for the seven months I was there plus what the other housing cost us. I am not sure what we paid for the other foreign nationals. I don't keep the books, but I can tell you for certain that our total project housing costs for 2012 were nowhere near $130K.

You said "Most projects in the Middle East last for a year to 18 months" but now claim otherwise. Also EVERYTHING is negotiable in the Middle East, you could easily get a 6 month lease if you felt like it.

Please explain.

[_DrW]

First of all, my friend, apartment leases in Oman are for either 7 or 12 months, usually depending on the time of year you enter the lease. You should know this.

So if you want apartments for up to four people for a one year project, you are locked into something just under $130,000 ($129,600 to be exact) per year for housing costs. This is a lot more than the $35,000 or so I paid at $5000 per month for the seven months I was there plus what the other housing cost us. I am not sure what we paid for the other foreign nationals. I don't keep the books, but I can tell you for certain that our total project housing costs for 2012 were nowhere near $130K.

You said "Most projects in the Middle East last for a year to 18 months" but now claim otherwise. Also EVERYTHING is negotiable in the Middle East, you could easily get a 6 month lease if you felt like it.

Please explain.

I have not "claimed otherwise". What I said was that my latest stint in Oman was seven months. I think I have mentioned that more than once on this thread. The current project in Oman was originally schedule for 12 months and will now be extended. My job there lasted for 7 months, and if needed, I will go back.

And what we felt like was staying in hotels so that we could concentrate on work and not have to worry about jet lagged folks arriving in the middle of the night (hotel shuttle would pick them up) and having to be responsible for an apartment, laundry, buying food and cooking, etc. A good hotel with a pool, good breakfast and an exercise room (none of which the apartments had) can be a real help in maintaining staff morale.

Another factor in our choice of housing was the fact that (as I mentioned) we often went to the field in Duqm, which is about 5 hours south of Muscat. With hotel accommodations, we could simply check out in Muscat and leave our baggage at the office while were were gone. With apartments we would have been paying for rooms in both Muscat and Duqm each time we went to the field. Because we lived in hotels, we only paid for one room per person per night.

In summary, we could afford hotels. They fit our work routine, and that is what we chose to use for housing.

Now perhaps you would explain why you feel qualified to give me advice on running our business in the Middle East when your experience in the Middle East has not been in technology transfer or technical consulting work and you have no clue what our rates are and what our foreign national labor costs were when working there.
____________

[_Bhodi]

I have not "claimed otherwise". What I said was that my latest stint in Oman was seven months. I think I have mentioned that more than once on this thread. The current project in Oman was originally schedule for 12 months and will now be extended. My job there lasted for 7 months, and if needed, I will go back.

Which again makes no sense. As everything is negotiable, why is it your company is acting in ways that completely contradict the norm for the region. You company could very easily save considerable amounts of money, but does not, and you find this justified, for a series of very illogical reasons. For example...

And what we felt like was staying in hotels so that we could concentrate on work and not have to worry about jet lagged folks arriving in the middle of the night (hotel shuttle would pick them up)

Everyone (Westerner) in the Middle East arrives with an expeditor, who arranges for everything from walking the new arrival through customs, to picking up their bags, to driving them to their location. This is the standard. Also, jet lag lasts a week at best, why spend twice as much for 7 months because of a week? Illogical.

and having to be responsible for an apartment, laundry, buying food and cooking, etc.

Everything, including all restaurants, are deliverable, and maids are very cheap. Here is a nice website from Cairo that delivers almost everything, and is easily accessible from your smart phone.

http://www.otlob.com/

Similar opportunities exist from Morocco to Abu Dhabi.

A good hotel with a pool, good breakfast and an exercise room (none of which the apartments had) can be a real help in maintaining staff morale.

You are telling me that a gym is not available? A pool? Really? This is untrue.

Another factor in our choice of housing was the fact that (as I mentioned) we often went to the field in Duqm, which is about 5 hours south of Muscat. With hotel accommodations, we could simply check out in Muscat and leave our baggage at the office while were were gone. With apartments we would have been paying for rooms in both Muscat and Duqm each time we went to the field. Because we lived in hotels, we only paid for one room per person per night.

At twice the rate. This again makes no sense. Oil companies do much the same, but they all utilize a pool of apartments. In fact, everyone with an even mild presence, does this.

In summary, we could afford hotels. They fit our work routine, and that is what we chose to use for housing.

At significant loss? This makes no sense.

Now perhaps you would explain why you feel qualified to give me advice on running our business in the Middle East when your experience in the Middle East has not been in technology transfer or technical consulting work and you have no clue what our rates are and what our foreign national labor costs were when working there.

Why would you assume this? I think my experience is likely more extensive than yours, and you might be surprised by how much it involved similar work. The difference was that I was a resident, and not a random visitor.

Why did you delete your comment about how the hotels needed your money? I thought that was particularly bizarre, that you see your company as subsidization of the hotel industry in Oman.

[_DrW]

Bhodi,

I am beginning to agree with the Doc, who suggested earlier in the thread that you "give it up".

You are beginning to make a fool of yourself. I have explained in great detail what we do and why we do it. You argue that we could have saved money in Oman by giving me examples of deals you got in places like Egypt. You then assume that your uninformed view as to how business should be done in Oman should apply to our business, again without knowledge or consideration of our hourly rate revenues, hourly rate costs, office space costs, transportation costs, etc.

You even suggest that I am being less than honest about working in Oman because I don't agree with your personal views about accommodations there.

If you had bothered to do some actual numbers, you would have been able to figure out that our approach is not "twice as expensive" as your suggested approach - not even close.

In fact, if you had bothered to do some rough calculations, you would have realized there can be a cost advantage to our system as compared to leasing apartment for a year (or even seven months), depending on how much time we spend in the field in a given month.

Consider the following:

Hotel in Muscat: $170 night
Hotel in Duqm: $160/night
Apartment in Muscat: $90/night

To make it easy, consider a month wherein we spend 15 days in Muscat and 15 days in the field.

Total cost of lodging for one person using hotels only: $4,950/month.
Total cost of lodging for one person using apartment in Muscat and hotel in Duqm: $5,100/month.

As to your claim that apartments in Qurum Beach have pools and exercise rooms, you are simply wrong.

As to your claim that EVERYTHING is negotiable in the Middle East, you are making a silly statement. If EVERYTHING were negotiable, we could have walked into the hotels (the Ramada, for example) and obtained a rate that was lower than the posted rate. Try it sometime. If you are lucky they might reduce your rate by a small amount just to be to be polite. More likely than not, they would decline to do so and politely suggest you seek less expensive accommodations elsewhere. They might even suggest someplace else for you to go.

I would like to do the same.