For former Mormons who became atheists

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_Alfredo
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Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Alfredo »

subgenius wrote:
Alfredo wrote:I know I already asked and no one seems to care, but this is just too silly to leave unengaged. Allow me to entertain myself at your own expense.

Can't believe you really missed this but...

"Dr Shades is in the room" and "Dr Shades is NOT in the room" are innaccurate statements.

More accurate statements might be "Half of Dr Shades is in one room." You get the point.

actually you completely missed the point, and offered something up that is basically nonsense.

I didn't miss your point. You stated it before you gave the examples... "self-contradiction is not a determination for true or false." Regardless, I posted about your examples. They simply don't support your point. Simply saying "that does not negate the example i offered" doesn't make it true. Both statements are not accurate and I explained why.

actually you completely missed the point, and offered something up that is basically nonsense. The true "out" for that contradiction is that Shades is in neither room, he is simply in the doorway. <-----that is what you getting served feels like
(hey, at least you were entertaining yourself, the rest of us....not so much).

OK... a poor jab after a bunch of irrelevant nonsense...

Think about a blue shirt....you say it is a blue shirt and i say it is a Brandeis blue shirt...both of us are, in fact, correct and accurate.

Only the slightest clue as to what you're talking about. So, you're going to have to expand your point.

congratulations, your post actually made me laugh. So, what of a pile is an "estimation"??? The same is true, at what point, then, do you "estimate" that it is not a pile anymore?
Besides, pile is not used an estimation, an estimation of what? do you actually have access to an online dictionary or are you in one of those countries?
A pile is simply a "quantity" of anything heaped together, massed together, put upon each other, etc........what the estimation??

I never had to use a dictionary. I used a perfectly reasonable definition. I think estimation may even be inherent to most definitions and that's your hang up. Are you suggesting that it's possible to speak of a pile in some sense that's not an estimation? Remember, my point is that you can't use definitions that imply estimation when you're measuring more accurately.

The only convincing thing you've offered in response to my post is to define "pile". So there you have it, a pile is no longer a pile when it is not longer a "quantity" of anything heaped together, massed together, put upon each other, etc...

Maybe you could explain how this definition creates a self-contradiction by defining "quantity" (in some sense that's not an estimation) so you can prove your point.
_Dr. Shades
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Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Dr. Shades »

subgenius wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:Subgenius, please prove that being a member of Mormonism is objectively "better" than not being a member of it.

I did not make that claim did I?

No, but you claimed that self-contradiction doesn't make something false. You also appear to be a believing member of Utah's wealthiest sect of Brighamite Mormonism, so I assume that you think that being a member is objectively "better" than not being one. . . otherwise you wouldn't be one.

why should that burden be upon me? its your claim - you prove it!

I don't claim that being a member of Mormonism is "better" than not being one.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_palerobber
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Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _palerobber »

question for Lightworker:

why isn't Love, by itself, a good enough thing to live for? what is gained by mixing in mysticism and the supernatural?
_Gunnar
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Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Gunnar »

palerobber wrote:question for Lightworker:

why isn't Love, by itself, a good enough thing to live for? what is gained by mixing in mysticism and the supernatural?

Excellent point! What does belief in mysticism and the supernatural give us that we could not obtain by simply acknowledging the observable and measurable realities of the world around us and striving to treat our fellow beings as we would like to be treated ourselves? It is painfully obvious to me that throughout history, religious beliefs in unprovable mysticism and the supernatural have done far more to create discord, intolerance and injustice than to promote peace and well-being for mankind. What advances have been made in general prosperity, health and longevity, and even human justice have been due far more to advances in scientific knowledge and technology than to religious superstition.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Mktavish
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Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Mktavish »

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Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Themis
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Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Themis »

Mktavish wrote:Infact I would go sofar as to say the recent technological advancments are actually decreasing mans capacity to love his neighbor. The internet would be the prime example but cell phones a very close second.


I would not say it affects our capacity to love, but it has changed society in ways that may separate us from each other. There are both positives and negatives here. Technology allows loved ones to be able to communicate from a distance on a regular basis, but there are also unintended negatives. Hopefully we will be able to deal with them. Humanity is certainly going ahead with technology with many unknowns, but then that is the big experiment we are a part of whether we like it or not.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
42
_Lightworker
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Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Lightworker »

PrickKicker wrote:Energy is dependant on mass.

E=MC2

This is Theory which is proven statistically, which work hand in hand with other proven theories.

There is no such thing as an Eternal system, all systems break down.

Spirituality is nothing more than the musings of the mind/Philosophy.
All religions try and use science or truth, mingled with philosophy to try and beguile others.
Image

I guess that is why buddha is so fat?
Image
His mass represents his spiritual energy.

Image
This Priest has something to say to you... Watch Hot Fuzz.


All systems break down. This was basically the Buddha's teaching. We live in an illusion. Our realm is not eternal. Or as Jesus put it, the heavens and the earth shall pass away, but my Word will not pass away. The Word is the source, it is Love in it's fullness and purity. It is the beginning and the end, the first and the last. All things return to Love the way I understand it. All things, matter included, will eventually break down to the fundamental source of existence in the end, which is Love itself. Love is the resolution of the paradox of duality that we exist in.

Have you ever studied mysticism, particularly real live mystics who have mastered their spiritual practice? Einstein couldn't figure out the universe. I have heard rumor that he studied alchemy in his spare time and tried to understand enlightenment but the mind cannot grasp it. He was smart enough to study mysticism is my point.
Love is all there is.
_Lightworker
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Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Lightworker »

Gunnar wrote:
palerobber wrote:question for Lightworker:

why isn't Love, by itself, a good enough thing to live for? what is gained by mixing in mysticism and the supernatural?

Excellent point! What does belief in mysticism and the supernatural give us that we could not obtain by simply acknowledging the observable and measurable realities of the world around us and striving to treat our fellow beings as we would like to be treated ourselves? It is painfully obvious to me that throughout history, religious beliefs in unprovable mysticism and the supernatural have done far more to create discord, intolerance and injustice than to promote peace and well-being for mankind. What advances have been made in general prosperity, health and longevity, and even human justice have been due far more to advances in scientific knowledge and technology than to religious superstition.


First of all, a distinction must be made between mysticism and belief. Mysticism is direct experience and brings knowledge. Belief does not have the evidence that mysticism provides. Belief, or faith in other words, placed on the highest love will lead to mystical experiences, in my opinion, but even then, the mystical experience is a grace from the creator and cannot be obtained "by force" (as Jesus put it).

The mystical experience is one of pure love and realization that all of the universe is exactly as it should be and is in perfect balance and harmony. There is no imperfection. Imperfection is part of perfection. In other words, there is no perfection either. There is no good, there is no evil. Nothing matters, yet everything is important and sacred. It's hard to put into words. It is inadequately described by the founders of religions.

My theory as to what happens is that people have mystical experiences that are glimpses of enlightenment, but they come back from this unified state with all of existence to their individual self, their ego. The ego has a mind, and the mind likes to categorize and label things good and bad. The mind does so, and attaches rules as to how one should conduct their lives in order to be in harmony with this Unity with all existence. The rules become teachings and dogma and religions are formed by the followers of the mystic. Sometimes it could be a fully enlightened mystic, like perhaps the Buddha was, or it can be a semi enlightened mystic, like Joseph Smith was (those are my opinions, not knowledge).

God + Ego = Demons. All those problems you mention that are the result of belief are indeed that, the ego clinging to belief. The belief may have God in it, but it can be demonic if it is not in harmony with the Unity, which contains no belief. Disagreement on God is a ego thing. If you study mysticism, you will find cross cultural parallels that are astounding evidence that the mystical experience is reality, to satisfy the mind that wants to believe in something. This is probably the most objective evidence for God, study mystics that have been separated by time and space.
Love is all there is.
_Gunnar
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Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _Gunnar »

Themis wrote:
Mktavish wrote:Infact I would go sofar as to say the recent technological advancments are actually decreasing mans capacity to love his neighbor. The internet would be the prime example but cell phones a very close second.


I would not say it affects our capacity to love, but it has changed society in ways that may separate us from each other. There are both positives and negatives here. Technology allows loved ones to be able to communicate from a distance on a regular basis, but there are also unintended negatives. Hopefully we will be able to deal with them. Humanity is certainly going ahead with technology with many unknowns, but then that is the big experiment we are a prat of whether we like it or not.

I agree. Both the internet and cell phones can be used either to strengthen ties and affection between people or alienate them from each other. Almost anything that has a great potential for good can also be used for evil and selfish purposes--even love (or, at least, the pretence of love).
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_PrickKicker
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Re: For former Mormons who became atheists

Post by _PrickKicker »

Lightworker wrote:
All systems break down. This was basically the Buddha's teaching. We live in an illusion. Our realm is not eternal. Or as Jesus put it, the heavens and the earth shall pass away, but my Word will not pass away. The Word is the source, it is Love in it's fullness and purity. It is the beginning and the end, the first and the last. All things return to Love the way I understand it. All things, matter included, will eventually break down to the fundamental source of existence in the end, which is Love itself. Love is the resolution of the paradox of duality that we exist in.

Have you ever studied mysticism, particularly real live mystics who have mastered their spiritual practice? Einstein couldn't figure out the universe. I have heard rumor that he studied alchemy in his spare time and tried to understand enlightenment but the mind cannot grasp it. He was smart enough to study mysticism is my point.


Mysticism and Mystics Seriously?
Surely such a true art would be adopted by universities and educational establishments, practiced and taught as science?
Or is it shared in secret societies behind closed doors?

Have you been inhaling or ingesting substances that claim to alter and or expand your mind?

Are you familiar with the pen and teller tv show called "BS!"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!
PrickKicker: I used to be a Narrow minded, short sighted, Lying, Racist, Homophobic, Pious, Moron. But they were all behavioral traits that I had learnt through Mormonism.
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