Bible verse by verse

[_Bazooka]

Here is something else for LittleNipper to answer: What does God really care about the most: that we love and worship him, or that we love each other and try to help each other?

how are you proposing that these two concepts mutually exclusive to God?
by what measure are you proposing that God has a "hierarchy" of caring? - i mean we can argue that God cares about this and abhors that...but how do you propose that God cares "more"?, any examples to justify your thought?

Is God a totally selfish and narcissistic creature whose main concern is how many believe in, adore and worship him? Whom would God respect and revere more? A non-Christian or atheist who consistently deals honestly and charitably with others, or a Christian who expresses love and adoration for God, but often cheats others whenever he can get away with it, and seldom lifts a finger to help others less fortunate than himself?

ironically is not loving God bound to loving each other?

Will anyone, regardless of how good and Christlike they have been throughout their life, get to live with God in the next life if they aren't Mormon?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No

Will any un married Mormon, regardless of how good and Christlike they have been throughout their life, get to live with God in the next life?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No

Celestial Kingdom

The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. This should be your goal: to inherit celestial glory and to help others receive that great blessing as well. Such a goal is not achieved in one attempt; it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.

The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have “received the testimony of Jesus” and been “made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood” (D&C 76:51, 69). To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins. For a detailed explanation of those who will inherit celestial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:50-70; 76:92-96.

In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. (See D&C 137:1-6.) Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:

“All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; ”Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

“For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” (D&C 137:7-9).

Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, “I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven” (D&C 137:10).

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage” and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1-4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.

Terrestrial Kingdom

Those who inherit terrestrial glory will “receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun” (D&C 76:77-78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people “who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were “not valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73-74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:71-80, 91, 97.

http://www.LDS.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory

Celestial

“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized, … that by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit.” These are they who overcome the world by their faith. They are just and true so that the Holy Ghost can seal their blessings upon them. (See D&C 76:51–53.) Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple (see D&C 131:1–4). All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever (see D&C 76:62).

Through the work we do in temples, all people who have lived on the earth can have an equal opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances of salvation so they can inherit a place in the highest degree of celestial glory.

http://www.LDS.org/manual/gospel-princi ... t?lang=eng

It seems like club membership and marriage are determining factors in how (Mormon) God views your status.
Want to be a God in the next life? Gotta join the Mormon club and get hitched to a Mormon woman, right subby?

[_LittleNipper]

The fact is that Satan is unredeemable, as are the fallen angels. They saw God in all His glory and turned to their own devices to exult themselves.

Which is an interesting point is it not?
Faced with absolute knowledge of God, His power, His methods and principles, knowledge of His plan and what He is capable of, etc.
Faced with all of that, Satan and a number of others still walked away believing they could do better.
Why is God not impressive enough for everyone with a perfect knowledge of Him to want to spend eternity with Him?

I will leave it at this which appears to be a comparison between the King of Tyre and "Lucifer" (Latin meaning Light bearer):

Ezekiel 28:11–19:
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones.
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you.
18 You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading; therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; you have become a horror, and shall be no more forever.” ’ ”

[Guest]

Joshua 4:1-24 When all the people were safely across, the twelve men (one from each tribe) must each to take a stone from where the priests are standing in the middle of the Jordan, and to carry them out and pile them up as a monument at the place where Israel camps. It is to remind them that the Jordan River stopped flowing when the Ark of God went across! The monument will be a permanent reminder to the people of Israel of this amazing miracle. This the men did. Joshua also built another monument of twelve stones in the middle of the river, at the place where the priests were standing. And it existed to the time of the writing of this book. The priests who were carrying the Ark stood in the middle of the river until all these instructions had been carried out. The troops of Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh—fully armed as Moses had instructed, and forty thousand strong—led the other tribes of the Lord’s army across to the plains of Jericho. It was a tremendous day for Joshua! The Lord made him great in the eyes of all the people of Israel, and they revered him as much as they had Moses and respected him deeply his entire life. As soon as the priests came out, the river water poured down again as usual and overflowed the banks as before! This miracle occurred on the 25th of March. That day the entire nation crossed the Jordan River and camped in Gilgal at the eastern edge of the city of Jericho with the monument of stones as a reminder for the future.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


1 And it cometh to pass, when all the nation hath completed to pass over the Jordan, that Jehovah speaketh unto Joshua, saying,

2 `Take for you out of the people twelve men, one man -- one man out of a tribe;

3 and command ye them, saying, Take up for you from this [place], from the midst of the Jordan, from the established standing-place of the feet of the priests, twelve stones, and ye have removed them over with you, and placed them in the lodging-place in which ye lodge to-night.'

4 And Joshua calleth unto the twelve men whom he prepared out of the sons of Israel, one man -- one man out of a tribe;

5 and Joshua saith to them, `Pass over before the ark of Jehovah your God unto the midst of the Jordan and lift up for you each, one stone on his shoulder, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Israel,

6 so that this is a sign in your midst, when your children ask hereafter, saying, What [are] these stones to you?

7 that ye have said to them, Because the waters of the Jordan were cut off, at the presence of the ark of the covenant of Jehovah; in its passing over into the Jordan were the waters of the Jordan cut off; and these stones have been for a memorial to the sons of Israel -- to the age.'

8 And the sons of Israel do so as Joshua commanded, and take up twelve stones out of the midst of the Jordan, as Jehovah hath spoken unto Joshua, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Israel, and remove them over with them unto the lodging-place, and place them there,

9 even the twelve stones hath Joshua raised up out of the midst of the Jordan, the place of the standing of the feet of the priests bearing the ark of the covenant, and they are there unto this day.

10 And the priests bearing the ark are standing in the midst of the Jordan till the completion of the whole thing which Jehovah commanded Joshua to speak unto the people, according to all that Moses commanded Joshua, and the people haste and pass over.

11 And it cometh to pass when all the people have completed to pass over, that the ark of Jehovah passeth over, and the priests, in the presence of the people;

12 and the sons of Reuben, and the sons of Gad, and the half of the tribe of Manasseh, pass over, by fifties, before the sons of Israel, as Moses had spoken unto them;

13 about forty thousand, armed ones of the host, passed over before Jehovah for battle, unto the plains of Jericho.

14 On that day hath Jehovah made Joshua great in the eyes of all Israel, and they reverence him, as they reverenced Moses, all days of his life.

15 And Jehovah speaketh unto Joshua, saying,

16 `Command the priests bearing the ark of the testimony, and they come up out of the Jordan.'

17 And Joshua commandeth the priests, saying, `Come ye up out of the Jordan.'

18 And it cometh to pass, in the coming up of the priests bearing the ark of the covenant of Jehovah out of the midst of the Jordan -- the soles of the feet of the priests have been drawn up into the dry ground -- and the waters of the Jordan turn back to their place, and go as heretofore over all its banks.

19 And the people have come up out of the Jordan on the tenth of the first month, and encamp in Gilgal, in the extremity east of Jericho;

20 and these twelve stones, which they have taken out of the Jordan, hath Joshua raised up in Gilgal.

21 And he speaketh unto the sons of Israel, saying, `When your sons ask their fathers hereafter, saying, What [are] these stones?

22 then ye have caused your sons to know, saying, On dry land Israel passed over this Jordan;

23 because Jehovah your God dried up the waters of the Jordan at your presence, till your passing over, as Jehovah your God did to the Red Sea which He dried up at our presence till our passing over;

24 so that all the people of the land do know the hand of Jehovah that it [is] strong, so that ye have reverenced Jehovah your God all the days.'

[_Bazooka]

Which is an interesting point is it not?
Faced with absolute knowledge of God, His power, His methods and principles, knowledge of His plan and what He is capable of, etc.
Faced with all of that, Satan and a number of others still walked away believing they could do better.
Why is God not impressive enough for everyone with a perfect knowledge of Him to want to spend eternity with Him?

I will leave it at this which appears to be a comparison between the King of Tyre and "Lucifer" (Latin meaning Light bearer):

Ezekiel 28:11–19:
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones.
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you.
18 You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading; therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; you have become a horror, and shall be no more forever.” ’ ”

Which really doesn't answer the question but perhaps avoids you engaging on the subject, yes?

You see, Satan and his minions had a perfect knowledge of God and knew what power He held, yet still they fancied their chances elsewhere.
If they know that God could/would diminish them to be 'no more forever' that makes their decision even more inexplicable.
They would rather risk being no more forever than stay living with God even though they had a perfect knowledge of Him.
That's a bit like an abused spouse leaving a violent partner who had the wherewithal to kill them, rather than stay in the relationship.
They chose certain death and destruction rather than stay with God. Just how bad must God have been to drive people to that kind of decision?

[_LittleNipper]

I will leave it at this which appears to be a comparison between the King of Tyre and "Lucifer" (Latin meaning Light bearer):

Ezekiel 28:11–19:
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones.
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you.
18 You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading; therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; you have become a horror, and shall be no more forever.” ’ ”

Which really doesn't answer the question but perhaps avoids you engaging on the subject, yes?

You see, Satan and his minions had a perfect knowledge of God and knew what power He held, yet still they fancied their chances elsewhere.
If they know that God could/would diminish them to be 'no more forever' that makes their decision even more inexplicable.
They would rather risk being no more forever than stay living with God even though they had a perfect knowledge of Him.
That's a bit like an abused spouse leaving a violent partner who had the wherewithal to kill them, rather than stay in the relationship.
They chose certain death and destruction rather than stay with God. Just how bad must God have been to drive people to that kind of decision?

Satan hated God's creation Man.

[_Bazooka]

Which really doesn't answer the question but perhaps avoids you engaging on the subject, yes?

You see, Satan and his minions had a perfect knowledge of God and knew what power He held, yet still they fancied their chances elsewhere.
If they know that God could/would diminish them to be 'no more forever' that makes their decision even more inexplicable.
They would rather risk being no more forever than stay living with God even though they had a perfect knowledge of Him.
That's a bit like an abused spouse leaving a violent partner who had the wherewithal to kill them, rather than stay in the relationship.
They chose certain death and destruction rather than stay with God. Just how bad must God have been to drive people to that kind of decision?

Satan hated God's creation Man.

And?
He chose certain death and destruction rather than stay with God.
What kind of God does that to someone because they dare to disagree?
Can you imagine that kind of relationship in a marriage.
"Listen, it's my way or I'm burying you under the patio."
Does that sound like a caring partner/husband/parent?

[_LittleNipper]

Satan hated God's creation Man.

And?
He chose certain death and destruction rather than stay with God.
What kind of God does that to someone because they dare to disagree?
Can you imagine that kind of relationship in a marriage.
"Listen, it's my way or I'm burying you under the patio."
Does that sound like a caring partner/husband/parent?

Did Satan believe in certain death and destruction? Can hate dwell with perfect love? Was God married to Satan? Could God allow Satan to destroy man?

[_Bazooka]

Did Satan believe in certain death and destruction? Can hate dwell with perfect love? Was God married to Satan? Could God allow Satan to destroy man?

Aren't you supposed to answer a question with...well...an answer, rather than a series of questions?

Let's start back at the beginning.
1. What is the purpose of this earth life?

[_Gunnar]

Here is something else for LittleNipper to answer: What does God really care about the most: that we love and worship him, or that we love each other and try to help each other?

how are you proposing that these two concepts mutually exclusive to God?

I didn't propose any such thing and you know that! All I'm saying is that a just God would care much less about whether or not we believe in him than about how we treat our fellow man. Also, any who claim to love God while showing little or no concern for their fellow man are liars, and much more deserving of divine condemnation than atheists who deal honestly and charitably with others. If one truly believes in a just and loving God, the only credible way to show our love for Him is by loving and dealing fairly and charitably with our fellow creatures.

by what measure are you proposing that God has a "hierarchy" of caring? - i mean we can argue that God cares about this and abhors that...but how do you propose that God cares "more"?, any examples to justify your thought?

What better example can I give than the one you quoted below?

Is God a totally selfish and narcissistic creature whose main concern is how many believe in, adore and worship him? Whom would God respect and revere more? A non-Christian or atheist who consistently deals honestly and charitably with others, or a Christian who expresses love and adoration for God, but often cheats others whenever he can get away with it, and seldom lifts a finger to help others less fortunate than himself?

I have atheist friends who are among the most decent and genuinely caring people I know, and I have known others who claim to be devout Christians who are self-righteous, uncaring and judgmental bigots. Which of those two types do you think deserves the greater condemnation?

ironically is not loving God bound to loving each other?

Ideally, yes! As I agreed above, anyone who claims to believe in and love the ideal of a just and caring Christian God, yet does not show by both actual word and deed, genuine love and concern for his fellow man is a liar and a hypocrite. On the other hand, there is nothing inherently hypocritical about loving one's fellow man while having honest doubts about the literal existence of God.

[_huckelberry]

As I agreed above, anyone who claims to believe in and love the ideal of a just and caring Christian God, yet does not show by both actual word and deed, genuine love and concern for his fellow man is a liar and a hypocrite. On the other hand, there is nothing inherently hypocritical about loving one's fellow man while having honest doubts about the literal existence of God.

Gunnar,
I am a Christian believer who finds the basics of the faith, creation, incarnation, death and resurrection of God as an atonement for our sin to be precious and the only hope for the human race. Because I believe those things I think your above comment is true and of serious worth.