Bible verse by verse

[_LittleNipper]

I have atheist friends who are among the most decent and genuinely caring people I know, and I have known others who claim to be devout Christians who are self-righteous, uncaring and judgmental bigots. Which of those two types do you think deserves the greater condemnation?

I can totally sympathize. Christians are not perfect. Christians are saved by grace. HOWEVER, if what you are saying is that anyone who applies Biblical principles when presented with no fault divorce, deviant "marriage," excusing the murder of babies, and expelling creational thoughts from scientific education as self-righteous, uncaring, and judgmental bigots --- then perhaps that needs some reconsideration. My concern for my atheistic friends is that they find Jesus. That is my prayer. I'd rather that they hated me (though that hurts) and end up in heaven, then to love me all the way to the pit of hell. I feel that presented in a prayerfully caring way, a Christian can get reasonable friends to at least understand where the Christian is coming from and why. I have seen nonbelievers come to Christians when faced with a seemingly insurmountable "problem." I can only believe that these atheists, in fact, really feel that true Christians do have "something" that they themselves lack.

[_Gunnar]

As I agreed above, anyone who claims to believe in and love the ideal of a just and caring Christian God, yet does not show by both actual word and deed, genuine love and concern for his fellow man is a liar and a hypocrite. On the other hand, there is nothing inherently hypocritical about loving one's fellow man while having honest doubts about the literal existence of God.

Gunnar,
I am a Christian believer who finds the basics of the faith, creation, incarnation, death and resurrection of God as an atonement for our sin to be precious and the only hope for the human race. Because I believe those things I think your above comment is true and of serious worth.

Thank you for your kind endorsement of that comment, huckleberry. I'm glad there is something on which we can agree.

I am firmly convinced, though, that the real "only hope for the human race" is universal or near universal acceptance of the principle of dealing honestly and charitably with each other, and recognizing that basing one's convictions on verifiable, objective evidence is a far more reliable approach to discerning truth and improving our understanding of reality than relying on subjective, religious faith and superstition.

You already know how little regard I have for the Christian Idea of the atonement, and why I reject it so vehemently. I am genuinely sorry if you are offended by that, but I hope you understand why I feel it is so grossly unjust and silly that a totally innocent being should have to be cruelly tortured to death to make it possible to forgive mistakes and sins committed by anyone else.

[_Bazooka]

HOWEVER, if what you are saying is that anyone who applies Biblical principles when presented with no fault divorce, deviant "marriage," excusing the murder of babies, and expelling creational thoughts from scientific education as self-righteous, uncaring, and judgmental bigots --- then perhaps that needs some reconsideration.

What?

Can you give an example of a quote from Gunnar that lends any credibility to you projecting that he was implying any of the drivel you've spouted in your post above?

Once you've done that, can you explain why the Bible propagates the belief that God murdering babies is acceptable?

[_subgenius]

What?

Can you give an example of a quote from Gunnar that lends any credibility to you projecting that he was implying any of the drivel you've spouted in your post above?

Once you've done that, can you explain why the Bible propagates the belief that God murdering babies is acceptable?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia
"The British House of Lords Select Committee on Medical Ethics defines euthanasia as "a deliberate intervention undertaken with the express intention of ending a life, to relieve intractable suffering""

[_Bazooka]

What?

Can you give an example of a quote from Gunnar that lends any credibility to you projecting that he was implying any of the drivel you've spouted in your post above?

Once you've done that, can you explain why the Bible propagates the belief that God murdering babies is acceptable?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia
"The British House of Lords Select Committee on Medical Ethics defines euthanasia as "a deliberate intervention undertaken with the express intention of ending a life, to relieve intractable suffering""

You seem to be saying that the Bible sets a precedent for Euthanasia based on what suffering might happen (its not guaranteed because we all have agency, right?) in the future thereby relieving children of their God given right to choose for themselves.
Is that what you're claiming?
Or are you suggesting that the lords select committee is a biblical authority?

[_LittleNipper]

Joshua 5:1-15 When all the Amorite kings west of the Jordan and all the Canaanite kings who lived along the Mediterranean coast heard how God had dried up the Jordan River so that all Israel could cross, they lost heart and were paralyzed with fear because of them. The Lord told Joshua to make flint knives and circumcise this second generation of Israelites. This Joshua did at Gibeath-haaraloth.
Joshua had to do because all the men who were old enough to fight in battle when they left Egypt died in the wilderness. Those born after the Exodus, during the years in the wilderness, had been circumcised. But after forty years all the men who were old enough to fight in battle when they left Egypt died. They had disobeyed the Lord, and the Lord vowed he would not let them enter the land he had sworn. Joshua circumcised their sons—those who had grown up to take their fathers’ places—for they had not been circumcised on the way to the Promised Land. After all the males had been circumcised, they rested in the camp until healed. While the Israelites were camped at Gilgal on the plains of Jericho, they celebrated Passover on the evening of the fourteenth day of the first month. The next day they ate unleavened bread and roasted grain harvested from the land. No manna appeared the day they first ate from the crops of the land, and it was never seen again. From that time on the Israelites ate from the crops of Canaan.

When Joshua was near the town of Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with sword in hand. Joshua went up to him and demanded, if he was friend or foe? "Neither," was the reply “I command the Lord’s army.” Joshua fell with his face to the ground in reverence. “I am at your command,” Joshua said. “What do you want your servant to do?” The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” Joshua complied.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


1 And it cometh to pass when all the kings of the Amorite which [are] beyond the Jordan, towards the sea, and all the kings of the Canaanite which [are] by the sea, hear how that Jehovah hath dried up the waters of the Jordan at the presence of the sons of Israel till their passing over, that their heart is melted, and there hath not been in them any more spirit because of the presence of the sons of Israel.

2 At that time said Jehovah unto Joshua, `Make for thee knives of flint, and turn back, circumcise the sons of Israel a second time;'

3 and Joshua maketh for him knives of flint, and circumciseth the sons of Israel at the height of the foreskins.

4 And this [is] the thing [for] which Joshua circumciseth [them]: all the people who are coming out of Egypt, who are males, all the men of war have died in the wilderness, in the way, in their coming out of Egypt,

5 for all the people who are coming out were circumcised, and all the people who [are] born in the wilderness, in the way, in their coming out from Egypt, they have not circumcised;

6 for forty years have the sons of Israel gone in the wilderness, till all the nation of the men of war who are coming out of Egypt, who hearkened not to the voice of Jehovah, to whom Jehovah hath sworn not to show them the land which Jehovah sware to their fathers to give to us, a land flowing with milk and honey, are consumed;

7 and their sons He raised up in their stead, them hath Joshua circumcised, for they have been uncircumcised, for they have not circumcised them in the way.

8 And it cometh to pass when all the nation have completed to be circumcised, that they abide in their places in the camp till their recovering;

9 and Jehovah saith unto Joshua, `To-day I have rolled the reproach of Egypt from off you;' and [one] calleth the name of that place Gilgal unto this day.

10 And the sons of Israel encamp in Gilgal, and make the passover on the fourteenth day of the month, at evening, in the plains of Jericho;

11 and they eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow of the passover, unleavened things and roasted [corn], in this self-same day;

12 and the manna doth cease on the morrow in their eating of the old corn of the land, and there hath been no more manna to the sons of Israel, and they eat of the increase of the land of Canaan in that year.

13 And it cometh to pass in Joshua's being by Jericho, that he lifteth up his eyes, and looketh, and lo, one standing over-against him, and his drawn sword in his hand, and Joshua goeth unto him, and saith to him, `Art thou for us or for our adversaries?'

14 And He saith, `No, for I [am] Prince of Jehovah's host; now I have come;' and Joshua falleth on his face to the earth, and doth obeisance, and saith to Him, `What is my Lord speaking unto His servant?'

15 And the Prince of Jehovah's host saith unto Joshua, `Cast off thy shoe from off thy foot, for the place on which thou art standing is holy;' and Joshua doth so;

[_ludwigm]

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
2 At that time said Jehovah unto Joshua, `Make for thee knives of flint, and turn back, circumcise the sons of Israel a second time;'
3 and Joshua maketh for him knives of flint, and circumciseth the sons of Israel at the height of the foreskins.
4 And this [is] the thing [for] which Joshua circumciseth [them]: all the people who are coming out of Egypt, who are males, all the men of war have died in the wilderness, in the way, in their coming out of Egypt,
5 for all the people who are coming out were circumcised, and all the people who [are] born in the wilderness, in the way, in their coming out from Egypt, they have not circumcised;
7 and their sons He raised up in their stead, them hath Joshua circumcised, for they have been uncircumcised, for they have not circumcised them in the way.
8 And it cometh to pass when all the nation have completed to be circumcised, that they abide in their places in the camp till their recovering;

Barbarians.

As all of whom advertise this thousands of years later.
Including you, LittleNipper.
.

[_subgenius]

You seem to be saying that the Bible sets a precedent for Euthanasia based on what suffering might happen (its not guaranteed because we all have agency, right?) in the future thereby relieving children of their God given right to choose for themselves.
Is that what you're claiming?
Or are you suggesting that the lords select committee is a biblical authority?

no, i seem to be saying that "murder" is not the only option when it comes to your rather sophomoric characterization of any particular event described in the Bible.
....
and "agency" is not just afforded to those on earth...as a Mormon you surely knew that when you putting forth your silly "agency" conclusion above...right?

[_Bazooka]

You seem to be saying that the Bible sets a precedent for Euthanasia based on what suffering might happen (its not guaranteed because we all have agency, right?) in the future thereby relieving children of their God given right to choose for themselves.
Is that what you're claiming?
Or are you suggesting that the lords select committee is a biblical authority?

no, i seem to be saying that "murder" is not the only option when it comes to your rather sophomoric characterization of any particular event described in the Bible.

Just because a group of stuffy old pontificating expense account fraudsters on a small island off the coast of Europe have decided to label some types of murder or suicide as 'Euthanasia' doesn't mean it's not murder or suicide. Murder is the taking of an individuals life without their consent in a pre meditated act. Just as God did to the inhabitants of this planet when He drowned them all. So is God two-faced (do as I say not as I do)? Or was Moses making it all up? Or was God not responsible for the flood at all and has been unfairly pegged as the perpetrator?

[_huckelberry]

Thank you for your kind endorsement of that comment, huckleberry. I'm glad there is something on which we can agree.

I am firmly convinced, though, that the real "only hope for the human race" is universal or near universal acceptance of the principle of dealing honestly and charitably with each other, and recognizing that basing one's convictions on verifiable, objective evidence is a far more reliable approach to discerning truth and improving our understanding of reality than relying on subjective, religious faith and superstition.

You already know how little regard I have for the Christian Idea of the atonement, and why I reject it so vehemently. I am genuinely sorry if you are offended by that, but I hope you understand why I feel it is so grossly unjust and silly that a totally innocent being should have to be cruelly tortured to death to make it possible to forgive mistakes and sins committed by anyone else.

"universal acceptance of principal of dealing honestly and charitably."

Well yes certainly. But you may notice that creating that acceptance in real action instead of words is considerably harder to do than it is to speak of. What excuse do people have for not having done this very desirable acceptance well before 10 thousand years ago? Our species has had hundred of thousands of years to work on this. I am sure folks in the stone age were capable of such thoughts, and knew our modern failures.

I suspect those ancient humans were appreciative of the value of objective evidence. People of all sorts of viewpoints cannot escape the necessity of careful consideration of objective evidence. How else are we to direct our lives to accomplish any sort of good or ill?.

I do not mean to disparage evidence to point out that a good understanding of the facts can facilitate effective action for both good and for the creation of evil. People have industriously studied the facts to create both.

Speaking of observing the facts, the question of what cost is involved in effective forgiveness is worth considering . It is probably not an easy sum to figure, particularly in the context of real injury and not simple mistakes. Now I am sure torturing some poor innocent does not help real forgiveness but neither does that image fit the Christian belief in atonement. It is basic Christian belief that effective forgiveness is the bedrock of creating a world where honesty and charity are fundamental and effective values. I think it is an issue of the kinds of connections between people. Healed connection may grow to something stronger than the power of evil acts (which do in fact exert considerable power over people)