Bible verse by verse

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_Gunnar
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _Gunnar »

Speaking of observing the facts, the question of what cost is involved in effective forgiveness is worth considering . It is probably not an easy sum to figure, particularly in the context of real injury and not simple mistakes. Now I am sure torturing some poor innocent does not help real forgiveness but neither does that image fit the Christian belief in atonement. It is basic Christian belief that effective forgiveness is the bedrock of creating a world where honesty and charity are fundamental and effective values. I think it is an issue of the kinds of connections between people. Healed connection may grow to something stronger than the power of evil acts (which do in fact exert considerable power over people)

Nothing you said here comes even close to making the slightest bit of sense out the notion that a totally innocent being had to be tortured to death before God could forgive anyone for anything.

I don't think it is at all unreasonable to conclude, or at least strongly suspect, that the real purpose behind the doctrine of Christ's atonement is to intimidate the gullible and fearful into joining and contributing materially to some organized religion that teaches that doctrine. If (heaven forbid!) people get the idea in their heads that they can work out their own, individual accommodation with God without the ordinances and rites offered by organized religion, or using some religious authority figure or priest as a go-between, that greatly reduces the potential for extorting money from them.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Bazooka
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _Bazooka »

Bazooka wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:HOWEVER, if what you are saying is that anyone who applies Biblical principles when presented with no fault divorce, deviant "marriage," excusing the murder of babies, and expelling creational thoughts from scientific education as self-righteous, uncaring, and judgmental bigots --- then perhaps that needs some reconsideration.


What?

Can you give an example of a quote from Gunnar that lends any credibility to you projecting that he was implying any of the drivel you've spouted in your post above?

Once you've done that, can you explain why the Bible propagates the belief that God murdering babies is acceptable?


What's up Nipper?
You got nothing?
Really?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_subgenius
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _subgenius »

Bazooka wrote:Just because a group of stuffy old pontificating expense account fraudsters on a small island off the coast of Europe have decided to label some types of murder or suicide as 'Euthanasia' doesn't mean it's not murder or suicide.

sure it does...by your way of thinking what else is possible. Are you stating, here and now, that there is an objective truth about murder...that murder transcends the circumstances mankind would impose upon any act of killing, when convenient to their cause?
Are you claiming that the "truth" is found in murder? that murder can never be viewed any other way? That regardless of one's "belief" there is an absolute truth for murder?

Bazooka wrote:Murder is the taking of an individuals life without their consent in a pre meditated act. Just as God did to the inhabitants of this planet when He drowned them all. So is God two-faced (do as I say not as I do)? Or was Moses making it all up? Or was God not responsible for the flood at all and has been unfairly pegged as the perpetrator?

Do you have evidence that consent was not given? Do you have evidence that each and every person objected to their demise?
Nevertheless, let us assume they all, each and every one, objected or were unaware of their impending demise....are you stating that God does not have the right to create and destroy? If so, then by what measure do you base that upon?
Is there some sort of LAW that you can reference which denies God this ability?
I do not understand the "system" you are using here....do you have some sort of objective system you are using? or is it just another, in a long list, of subjective-in-the-moment systems....wait "murder" is murder, right?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Bazooka
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _Bazooka »

subgenius wrote:Are you stating, here and now, that there is an objective truth about murder...that murder transcends the circumstances mankind would impose upon any act of killing, when convenient to their cause?
Are you claiming that the "truth" is found in murder? that murder can never be viewed any other way? That regardless of one's "belief" there is an absolute truth for murder?


I'm not claiming anything. I'm asking how come God stated "Thou shalt not kill" but demonstrated that "I shalt kill".
Seems blatantly contradictory to me.

Are you saying that God can do what He pleases, regardless of what guidance and instructions He has given humanity?
You're going with a "Do as I say not as I do" God, and are prepared to worship Him?
Seriously?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_subgenius
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _subgenius »

Bazooka wrote:I'm not claiming anything. I'm asking how come God stated "Thou shalt not kill" but demonstrated that "I shalt kill".
Seems blatantly contradictory to me.

How is it contradictory? How are you considering the actions of God to NOT be mutually exclusive from the actions of a human being on earth?
As for your question here...I would surmise that He demonstrated in order to illustrate His power - an illustration He has often provided for those who may be unsure to what extent His power may reach....
but there could be other reasons....are you having difficulty grasping the concept of God?
I mean, is it equally troubling to you that He can part the Sea but you cannot? That He can turn water into wine and you are left with only being able to turn money into beer?

Bazooka wrote:Are you saying that God can do what He pleases, regardless of what guidance and instructions He has given humanity?{/quote]
Yes, that is what i am saying...but "what He pleases" is something you seem to be struggling with.

Bazooka wrote:You're going with a "Do as I say not as I do" God, and are prepared to worship Him?
Seriously?

Though your examples are hardly the same thing, for obvious reasons...it is not a hard concept. Leaders and authorities quite often operate on a similar premise without incident or concern - it is a quite natural condition - just as the condition of "Do as I say because I do it too" is a natural condition.
These seem to be fundamental modes of operation for the majority of human beings - i am guessing you consider yourself exceptional on this?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_huckelberry
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _huckelberry »

Gunnar wrote:Nothing you said here comes even close to making the slightest bit of sense out the notion that a totally innocent being had to be tortured to death before God could forgive anyone for anything.



Gunnar, I do not see any sense in your characterization of the atonement and made no effort to try to make sense out of it. It is a trainwreck.
_Gunnar
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _Gunnar »

huckelberry wrote:
Gunnar wrote:Nothing you said here comes even close to making the slightest bit of sense out the notion that a totally innocent being had to be tortured to death before God could forgive anyone for anything.



Gunnar, I do not see any sense in your characterization of the atonement and made no effort to try to make sense out of it. It is a trainwreck.

If you are admitting here that whether or not Christ died on the cross had nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not God can or will forgive the truly repentant, then I can grant that you may be right. Furthermore, I reject the notion that just and loving God would or should be any less forgiving of a repentant non-Christian than a repentant Christian.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_huckelberry
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _huckelberry »

Gunnar wrote: Furthermore, I reject the notion that just and loving God would or should be any less forgiving of a repentant non-Christian than a repentant Christian.


Well of course, that loving God not only created both groups but went to all the bother to suffer assault, accusation and death for both groups in order to establish a better life and future for all, (one where humans treat each other with truth and charity)

God is free to forgive anyone he wants on any basis he wants.The Christian message is that He himself suffered our sins to forgive those sins. That is parallel to the fact that when we are unjustly injured we must accept the suffering in order to forgive.
_LittleNipper
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _LittleNipper »

Bazooka wrote:
subgenius wrote:no, i seem to be saying that "murder" is not the only option when it comes to your rather sophomoric characterization of any particular event described in the Bible.


Just because a group of stuffy old pontificating expense account fraudsters on a small island off the coast of Europe have decided to label some types of murder or suicide as 'Euthanasia' doesn't mean it's not murder or suicide. Murder is the taking of an individuals life without their consent in a pre meditated act. Just as God did to the inhabitants of this planet when He drowned them all. So is God two-faced (do as I say not as I do)? Or was Moses making it all up? Or was God not responsible for the flood at all and has been unfairly pegged as the perpetrator?

You are nothing but a rake. The fact that people grow old and feeble and die is 'Euthanasia' according to your train of thought? God is LORD. Euthanasia is when someone plays at being GOD. People will die, and die because there is sin in the world. The blessing is that we are not made to live forever in such a state of depravity. And until you understand this point, you will continue to think that you are more moral than God.
_Bazooka
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Re: Bible verse by verse

Post by _Bazooka »

LittleNipper wrote:
Bazooka wrote:Just because a group of stuffy old pontificating expense account fraudsters on a small island off the coast of Europe have decided to label some types of murder or suicide as 'Euthanasia' doesn't mean it's not murder or suicide. Murder is the taking of an individuals life without their consent in a pre meditated act. Just as God did to the inhabitants of this planet when He drowned them all. So is God two-faced (do as I say not as I do)? Or was Moses making it all up? Or was God not responsible for the flood at all and has been unfairly pegged as the perpetrator?

You are nothing but a rake. The fact that people grow old and feeble and die is 'Euthanasia' according to your train of thought? God is LORD. Euthanasia is when someone plays at being GOD. People will die, and die because there is sin in the world. The blessing is that we are not made to live forever in such a state of depravity. And until you understand this point, you will continue to think that you are more moral than God.


Good luck showing us where I allude to that conclusion.

I don't think I'm more moral than God.
But I am more moral than the version of God portrayed in the Bible.
I'd say I was slightly more consistent too.

But feel free to explain how the flood wasn't murder of innocents....

Here's an example of the character of the God of the Old Testament:
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath can issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:
3 Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell.
4 And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the Lord spake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel.

(Numbers 5)
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
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