Gunnar wrote:What you basically seem to be arguing here is that no logical fallacy is invalid,
no...i am arguing what i said...and it was basic and specific. Don't try to re-characterize my statement. Logical fallacies are valid when they apply to their context. Like i said "science cannot be used to prove science" Consider the idea of "foundationalism" - basically accepting the notion that "self-evident" is true....which is to say, some statements do not require justification....they are self-justifying....this is common with observations, like "it is sunny today"...it is not necessary to ascertain how one came to that conclusion - by looking outside, hearing it on the weather, etc. This is an oversimplified notion, and to some a bit arbitrary, but it is a valid point here.
Gunnar wrote: if needed to defend LDS or other religious truth claims that cannot be otherwise defended. It still basically amounts to deciding a priori that those truth claims must be infallible and that one is therefore justified in dismissing out of hand any and all evidence to the contrary, no matter how seemingly compelling and incontrovertible. What your argument amounts to is a pathetic "grasping at straws", doing what ever it takes to desperately hold on to your currently held religious convictions.
"religious truth claims"? like the fact that there is a God?...no evidence has been provided to the contrary, so i am unsure what you are driving at. You, like many, insist that God, and religion, fit onto a nice tidy glass slide that could fit under a microscope...and i am not denying that microscopes have useful functions and can provide truths about some things...but...its as simple as one insisting that since it is not an apple it certainly cannot be an orange.
Gunnar wrote:I deny that the Bible is free from internal, logical inconsistencies or that it is undoubtedly and completely coherent. That it is either of those is very far from established beyond rational dispute or doubt, despite what you or LittleNipper might think.
but that is simply, by your own admission, your opinion. The fact is there are very few...very few....atheists in the world. The position of the atheist is unlikely and less probable than any other position... nevertheless Your point here seems to be more along the lines of Pointilism or the DeStijl movements in art.
Gunnar wrote:I don't think you really understand the power of induction and empiricism as used by science to ascertain and understand truth, or how science really uses them. Induction must be used in conjunction with deduction, however. Using either one alone can lead to error. Our modern, technological civilization is eloquent testimony to and proof of how well the scientific approach to understanding reality works. Occasional mistakes inevitably occur, but because of the inherently self-correcting nature of this approach, there is a very high probably that these mistakes will eventually be exposed and corrected simply by continuing to use it.
zealot. you have just provided one of the most emphatic faith based statements i have ever read... i like how you started with inductive and deductive..disregarded them both and relied upon abductive reasoning.
Gunnar wrote:On the other hand, the inherent unreliability and inconsistency of the religious, subjective faith approach to ascertaining truth has been established beyond all reasonable doubt. You and LittleNipper are extremely compelling evidence of that, whether you realize it or not! Besides that, when mistakes occur using that approach, their perpetuation is virtually guaranteed because of the very nature of that approach and the disinclination of those using it to seriously consider any evidence that casts legitimate doubt on their conclusions.
this is just drivel and merits little more of a response than this.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Gunnar wrote:On the other hand, the inherent unreliability and inconsistency of the religious, subjective faith approach to ascertaining truth has been established beyond all reasonable doubt. You and LittleNipper are extremely compelling evidence of that, whether you realize it or not! Besides that, when mistakes occur using that approach, their perpetuation is virtually guaranteed because of the very nature of that approach and the disinclination of those using it to seriously consider any evidence that casts legitimate doubt on their conclusions.
this is just drivel and merits little more of a response than this.
I like way you discredit yourself by dismissing any inconvenient argument or fact you know you can't refute by merely calling it "drivel." It is no more drivel than attributing the brightness of daytime to the presence of the sun in the sky. You talk a lot about things you think are "self-evident." I can think of nothing more self-evident than the fact that the numerous, mutually contradictory religious belief systems sincerely claimed by their adherents to be of divine origin are proof of the extreme unreliability of appeals to or claims of divine authority.
The undisputable fact still remains that the scientific, empirical approach to ascertaining truth clearly works very reliably. The same cannot be said for the subjective, religious faith approach, no matter how you try to spin it. I still say that insisting that it is reliable in light of the undeniable fact that there are innumerable, mutually contradictory religious belief systems based on what their adherents firmly believe to be divine inspiration is like insisting it is midnight while staring directly at the sun at high noon on a cloudless day. This is separate from the question of whether there actually is a God or not. Whether there is or not, it is still clear that appealing to or believing in divine inspiration is horribly unreliable and inconsistent, and has resulted in a great deal of mutually contradictory nonsense, injustice and even atrocities (including those described in the Old Testament).
Even if there is something that we can call God, it is very far from self-evident that such entity is necessarily like the Mormon concept of God, or any other particular concept of God that is currently in vogue.
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No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
New International Version If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
New Living Translation If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
English Standard Version because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
New American Standard Bible that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
King James Bible That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Quran Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. S. 109:1-6 Pickthall
Chapter 25 (Book of Mormon) 1 Now I, [b]Nephi, do speak somewhat concerning the words which I have written[/b], which have been spoken by the mouth of Isaiah. For behold, Isaiah spake many things which were ahard for many of my people to understand; for they know not concerning the manner of prophesying among the Jews.
Come on, now LittleNipper, we've been through this before. You can't use the Bible's claims of its own infallibility as proof that it is infallible. That is circular reasoning, which is not and can not ever be reasonably acceptable as proof of anything whatsoever.
What you do not seem to get is that the Bible is straight forward. This is what one needs to do. You want circles ---------the Quran talks in circles. And the fact is, that here is an entire CHAPTER in 6 verses, that doesn't explain who is speaking nor who is being spoken about. In fact it makes little if any sense. The Book of Mormon comes right out and says who wrote it, and it isn't God.
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Judges 5:1-31 Deborah and Barak sang this song about the wonderful victory:
“Praise the Lord! Israel’s leaders bravely led; The people gladly followed! Bless the Lord!
Listen, O kings and princes, For I shall sing about the Lord, God of Israel.
When you led us out from Seir, Out across the fields of Edom, The earth trembled The sky poured down its rain.
Even Mount Sinai quaked At the presence of the God of Israel!
In the days of Shamgar and of Jael, Main roads were deserted. Travelers used narrow, crooked side paths.
Israel’s population shrank, Until Deborah became a mother to Israel.
When Israel chose new gods, Everything collapsed. Our masters would not let us have shield nor spear. Among forty thousand men of Israel, No weapon were found!
How I rejoice In the leaders of Israel Offering themselves willingly! Praise the Lord!
Let all Israel, rich and poor, Join in his praises— Those who ride on white donkeys And sit on expensive carpets, And those who are poor and must walk.
The village musicians Gather at the well To sing of the triumphs of the Lord. Again and again they sing the ballad Of how the Lord saved Israel Using an army of peasants! People of the Lord Marched through the gates!
Awake, O Deborah, and sing! Arise, O Barak! O son of Abinoam, lead away your captives!
Down from Mount Tabor marched a noble remnant. The people of the Lord Marched down against all odds. They came from Ephraim and Benjamin, From Machir and from Zebulun.
Down to the valley Went the princes of Issachar With Deborah and Barak. At God’s command they rushed into the valley. (Though the tribe of Reuben didn’t go.
Why did you sit at home among your sheep pens, Playing your shepherd pipes? Yes, the tribe of Reuben has an uneasy conscience.
Why did Gilead remain across the Jordan, And why did Dan remain with his ships? And why did Asher sit unmoved Upon the seashore, At ease in his harbors?)
But the tribes of Zebulun and Naphtali Dared death upon the fields of battle.
The kings of Canaan fought in Taanach By Megiddo’s springs, But did not win this victory.
The very angels of heaven Fought Sisera.
The rushing Kishon River Swept them away. March on, my soul, with strength!
Hear the gallop Of the horsehoofs of the enemy! The prancing of his steeds!
But the Angel of Jehovah Put a curse on Meroz. ‘Curse them bitterly,’ he said, ‘For they did not come to help the Lord Against his enemies.’
Blessed be Jael, The wife of Heber the Kenite— Yes, may she be blessed Above all women living in tents.
He asked for water And she gave him milk in a beautiful cup!
Then she took a tent peg and a workman’s hammer And pierced Sisera’s temples, Crushing his head. She pounded the tent peg through his head.
He sank, he is slain, he lay dead at her feet.
The mother of Sisera watched from her window For his return. ‘Why is his chariot so long in coming? Why don’t we hear these wheels resound?’
But her ladies-in-waiting—and she herself—replied, ‘There is much loot to be divided, And this takes time. Each man receives a girl or two; And Sisera will get gorgeous robes, And he will bring home Many gifts for me.’
O Lord, may all your enemies Perish as Sisera did, But may those who love the Lord Shine as the sun!”
Then came peace to the land for 40 years.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And Deborah singeth -- also Barak son of Abinoam -- on that day, saying: --
2 `For freeing freemen in Israel, For a people willingly offering themselves Bless ye Jehovah.
3 Hear, ye kings; give ear, ye princes, I, to Jehovah, I -- I do sing, I sing praise to Jehovah, God of Israel.
4 Jehovah, in Thy going forth out of Seir, In Thy stepping out of the field of Edom, Earth trembled, also the heavens dropped, Also thick clouds dropped water.
5 Hills flowed from the face of Jehovah, This one -- Sinai -- From the face of Jehovah, God of Israel.
6 In the days of Shamgar son of Anath -- In the days of Jael -- The ways have ceased, And those going in the paths go [in] crooked ways.
7 Villages ceased in Israel -- they ceased, Till that I arose -- Deborah, That I arose, a mother in Israel.
8 He chooseth new gods, Then war [is] at the gates! A shield is not seen -- and a spear Among forty thousand in Israel.
9 My heart [is] to the lawgivers of Israel, Who are offering themselves willingly among the people, Bless ye Jehovah!
10 Riders on white asses -- Sitters on a long robe -- And walkers by the way -- meditate!
11 By the voice of shouters Between the places of drawing water, There they give out righteous acts of Jehovah, Righteous acts of His villages in Israel, Then ruled in the gates have the people of Jehovah.
12 Awake, awake, Deborah; Awake, awake, utter a song; Rise, Barak, and take captive thy captivity, Son of Abinoam.
13 Then him who is left of the honourable ones He caused to rule the people of Jehovah, He caused me to rule among the mighty.
14 Out of Ephraim their root [is] against Amalek. After thee, Benjamin, among thy peoples. Out of Machir came down lawgivers, And out of Zebulun those drawing with the reed of a writer.
15 And princes in Issachar [are] with Deborah, Yea, Issachar [is] right with Barak, Into the valley he was sent on his feet. In the divisions of Reuben, Great [are] the decrees of heart!
16 Why hast thou abode between the boundaries, To hear lowings of herds? For the divisions of Reuben, Great [are] the searchings of heart!
17 Gilead beyond the Jordan did tabernacle, And Dan -- why doth he sojourn [in] ships? Asher hath abode at the haven of the seas, And by his creeks doth tabernacle.
18 Zebulun [is] a people who exposed its soul to death, Naphtali also -- on high places of the field.
19 Kings came -- they fought; Then fought kings of Canaan, In Taanach, by the waters of Megiddo; Gain of money they took not!
20 From the heavens they fought: The stars from their highways fought with Sisera.
21 The brook Kishon swept them away, The brook most ancient -- the brook Kishon. Thou dost tread down strength, O my soul!
22 Then broken were the horse-heels, By pransings -- pransings of its mighty ones.
23 Curse Meroz -- said a messenger of Jehovah, Cursing, curse ye its inhabitants, For they came not to the help of Jehovah, To the help of Jehovah among the mighty!
24 Blessed above women is Jael, Wife of Heber the Kenite, Above women in the tent she is blessed.
25 Water he asked -- milk she gave; In a lordly dish she brought near butter.
26 Her hand to the pin she sendeth forth, And her right hand to the labourers' hammer, And she hammered Sisera -- she smote his head, Yea, she smote, and it passed through his temple.
27 Between her feet he bowed -- He fell, he lay down; Between her feet he bowed, he fell; Where he bowed, there he fell -- destroyed.
28 Through the window she hath looked out -- Yea, she crieth out -- the mother of Sisera, Through the lattice: Wherefore is his chariot delaying to come? Wherefore tarried have the steps of his chariot?
29 The wise ones, her princesses, answer her, Yea, she returneth her sayings to herself:
30 Do they not find? -- they apportion spoil, A female -- two females -- for every head, Spoil of finger-work for Sisera, Spoil of embroidered finger-work, Finger-work -- a pair of embroidered things, For the necks of the spoil!
31 So do all Thine enemies perish, O Jehovah, And those loving Him [are] As the going out of the sun in its might!' and the land resteth forty years.
LittleNipper wrote:What you do not seem to get is that the Bible is straight forward. This is what one needs to do. You want circles ---------the Quran talks in circles. And the fact is, that here is an entire CHAPTER in 6 verses, that doesn't explain who is speaking nor who is being spoken about. In fact it makes little if any sense. The Book of Mormon comes right out and says who wrote it, and it isn't God.
"Says who wrote it" of course, just like Luke wrote the gospel of Luke, Paul wrote Romans and Jeremiah wrote Jeremiah.
I am curious what chapter of Koran are you referring to? I am not a believer in the Koran but I have read it. It is not a dumb book.
LittleNipper wrote:What you do not seem to get is that the Bible is straight forward. This is what one needs to do. You want circles ---------the Quran talks in circles. And the fact is, that here is an entire CHAPTER in 6 verses, that doesn't explain who is speaking nor who is being spoken about. In fact it makes little if any sense. The Book of Mormon comes right out and says who wrote it, and it isn't God.
"Says who wrote it" of course, just like Luke wrote the gospel of Luke, Paul wrote Romans and Jeremiah wrote Jeremiah.
I am curious what chapter of Koran are you referring to? I am not a believer in the Koran but I have read it. It is not a dumb book.
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. Say;O disbelievers ! I worship not that which ye worship. Nor worship ye that which I worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship unto you your religion and unto me my religion. ............................... Simple clear with a poetic cadence. (?)
You know there once was a time when I wished the Bible had a bit more to the Korans beauty simplicity and directness.
Gunnar wrote:That is circular reasoning, which is not and can not ever be reasonably acceptable as proof of anything whatsoever.
What you do not seem to get is that the Bible is straight forward. This is what one needs to do. You want circles ---------the Quran talks in circles. And the fact is, that here is an entire CHAPTER in 6 verses, that doesn't explain who is speaking nor who is being spoken about. In fact it makes little if any sense. The Book of Mormon comes right out and says who wrote it, and it isn't God.
What you do not seem to get is that nothing you said in response to Bazooka even began to address the questions he posed here:
Bazooka wrote:What you have yet to show is why the Bible should be seen as anything other than a collection of myths and legends written down by disparate group of opinionated or agenda driving individuals. How does the Bible demonstrate it is God speaking rather than how I have just portrayed it? How do you rationalise a loving God against the God you believe in that, by means of drowning, extinguished humanity -men, women, children, babies, unborn babies etc simply because things weren't going His way?
thus his sigh of frustration.
You have still failed to give any credible justification for concluding that the Bible is necessarily ". . .anything other than a collection of myths and legends written down by disparate group of opinionated or agenda driving individuals."
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
LittleNipper wrote: What you do not seem to get is that the Bible is straight forward. This is what one needs to do. You want circles ---------the Quran talks in circles. And the fact is, that here is an entire CHAPTER in 6 verses, that doesn't explain who is speaking nor who is being spoken about. In fact it makes little if any sense. The Book of Mormon comes right out and says who wrote it, and it isn't God.
What you do not seem to get is that nothing you said in response to Bazooka even began to address the questions he posed here:
Bazooka wrote:What you have yet to show is why the Bible should be seen as anything other than a collection of myths and legends written down by disparate group of opinionated or agenda driving individuals. How does the Bible demonstrate it is God speaking rather than how I have just portrayed it? How do you rationalise a loving God against the God you believe in that, by means of drowning, extinguished humanity -men, women, children, babies, unborn babies etc simply because things weren't going His way?
thus his sigh of frustration.
You have still failed to give any credible justification for concluding that the Bible is necessarily ". . .anything other than a collection of myths and legends written down by disparate group of opinionated or agenda driving individuals."
The FACT is that some (if not most) of the rabbinical priests did not want to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. They had him there in person. He healed, quieted storms and brought people back from the dead. He explained the Word of God, said he was the Son of God. Now you want me to prove that the Bible is God's Word. That isn't my job. Jesus said to go into all the world and preach the GOSPEL (the message of salvation). I'm not here to sell you a book. My job is to introduce you to the Lord Jesus Christ. If you are to be saved, God will save you. Once you have Jesus, you will (by way of a changed nature) begin to understand and accept the Bible. God works through His Word to bless the Believer. Until a person accepts Christ, the Bible condemns the nonbeliever with the wages for sin.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Judges 6:1-40 Then the people of Israel once again did what was evil, and once again the Lord let their enemies harass them. This time it was by the people of Midian, for seven years. The Midianites were so cruel that the Israelis took to the mountains, living as cavemen. When they planted their seed, marauders from Midian, Amalek, and other neighboring nations came and destroyed their crops and plundered the countryside as far away as Gaza, leaving nothing to eat and taking away all their sheep, oxen, and donkeys. These enemy hordes arrived on droves of camels too numerous to count and stayed until the land was completely stripped and devastated. So Israel was reduced to abject poverty because of the Midianites. Then at last the people of Israel began to cry out to the Lord for help. However, the Lord’s reply through the prophet he sent to them was this: “The Lord God of Israel brought you out of slavery in Egypt, and rescued you from the Egyptians and from all who were cruel to you, and drove out your enemies before you, and gave you their land. He told you he is the Lord your God, and you must not worship the gods of the Amorites who live around you on every side. But you have not listened to him.”
One day the Angel of the Lord [again, very possibly a CHRISTOPHANY] came and sat beneath the oak tree at Ophrah, on the farm of Joash the Abiezrite. Joash’s son, Gideon, had been threshing wheat by hand in the bottom of a grape press—a pit where grapes were pressed to make wine—for he was hiding from the Midianites. [Not a very good place because wind is needed to blow away the chaff]. The Angel of the Lord appeared and said, “Mighty soldier, the Lord is with you!”
Gideon replied, that if the Lord is with Israel, why has all this happened to? And where are all the miracles the ancestors have spoken about—such as when God brought them out of Egypt? The Lord has thrown Israel away and has let the Midianites completely ruin them.
The Lord turned to him and said that He will save Israel from the Midianites! He is sending Gideon.
Gideon replied, “Sir, how can I save Israel? My family is the poorest in the whole tribe of Manasseh, and I am the least thought of in the entire family!” The Lord said to him that He will be with be with Gideon and he shall quickly destroy the Midianites.
Gideon replied that if this be true then he asks for some miracle to prove it! Then Gideon asks the angel to stay remain until Gideon gets a gift offering. The Angel agrees. Gideon hurried home and roasted a young goat and baked some unleavened bread from a bushel of flour [Obviously, sometime went by]. Then, carrying the meat in a basket and broth in a pot, he took it out to the Angel, who was beneath the oak tree, and presented it to him.
The Angel said to him, “Place the meat and the bread upon that rock over there, and pour the broth over it.” When Gideon had followed the instructions, this Angel touched the meat and bread with his staff, and fire flamed up from the rock and consumed them! And suddenly the Angel disappears. Gideon realized that it had indeed been the Angel of the Lord, he cried out, “Alas, O Lord God, for I have seen the Angel of the Lord face-to-face!” The Lord replied not to fear for he will not die.
Gideon built an altar there and named it “The Altar of Peace with Jehovah.” (This altar remained there in Ophrah in the land of the Abiezrites, to the time this record was written.) That night the Lord told Gideon to hitch his father’s best ox to the family altar of Baal and pull it down, and to cut down the wooden idol of the goddess Asherah that stood nearby. It is to be replaced it with an altar for the Lord God, built here on this hill, laying the stones carefully. Gideon is to sacrifice the ox as a burnt offering to the Lord, using the wooden idol to fuel the fire on the altar.
Gideon takes 10 servants and did as the Lord had commanded, at night for fear of the other members of his father’s household, and for fear of the men of the city; for he knew what would happen if they found out who did it! Early the next morning, as the city began to stir, someone discovered that the altar of Baal was knocked apart, the idol beside it was gone, and a new altar had been built instead, with the remains of a sacrifice on it. "Who did this?” everyone demanded. They learned that it was Gideon, the son of Joash. They demanded that Gideon must die for insulting the altar of Baal and for cutting down the Asherah idol.
But Joash retorted to the whole mob, “Does Baal need your help? What an insult to a god! You are the ones who should die for insulting Baal! If Baal is really a god, let him take care of himself and destroy the one who broke apart his altar!” From then on Gideon was called “Jerubbaal,” a nickname meaning “Let Baal take care of himself!”
Soon afterward the armies of Midian, Amalek, and other neighboring nations united in one vast alliance against Israel. They crossed the Jordan and camped in the valley of Jezreel. The Spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet as a call to arms. The men of Abiezer came to him. He also sent messengers throughout Manasseh, Asher, Zebulun, and Naphtali, summoning their fighting forces, and all of them responded.
Then Gideon asked God for additional proof. Gideon will put some wool on the threshing floor that night, and if, in the morning, the fleece is wet and the ground is dry, Gideon will know God is going to help. And it happened just that way! When Gideon got up the next morning, he pressed the fleece together and wrung out a whole bowlful of water!
Then Gideon asked the Lord for one more test: this time Gideon wants the fleece to remain dry while the ground around it is wet. So the Lord did as he asked; that night the fleece stayed dry, but the ground was covered with dew!
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And the sons of Israel do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, and Jehovah giveth them into the hand of Midian seven years,
2 and the hand of Midian is strong against Israel, from the presence of Midian have the sons of Israel made for themselves the flowings which [are] in the mountains, and the caves, and the strongholds.
3 And it hath been, if Israel hath sowed, that Midian hath come up, and Amalek, and the sons of the east, yea, they have come up against him,
4 and encamp against them, and destroy the increase of the land till thine entering Gaza; and they leave no sustenance in Israel, either sheep, or ox, or ass;
5 for they and their cattle come up, with their tents; they come in as the fulness of the locust for multitude, and of them and of their cattle there is no number, and they come into the land to destroy it.
6 And Israel is very weak from the presence of Midian, and the sons of Israel cry unto Jehovah.
7 And it cometh to pass when the sons of Israel have cried unto Jehovah, concerning Midian,
8 that Jehovah sendeth a man, a prophet, unto the sons of Israel, and he saith to them, `Thus said Jehovah, God of Israel, I -- I have brought you up out of Egypt, and I bring you out from a house of servants,
9 and I deliver you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all your oppressors, and I cast them out from your presence, and I give to you their land,
10 and I say to you, I [am] Jehovah your God, ye do not fear the gods of the Amorite in whose land ye are dwelling: -- and ye have not hearkened to My voice.'
11 And the messenger of Jehovah cometh and sitteth under the oak which [is] in Ophrah, which [is] to Joash the Abi-Ezrite, and Gideon his son is beating out wheat in the wine-press, to remove [it] from the presence of the Midianites;
12 and the messenger of Jehovah appeareth unto him, and saith unto him, `Jehovah [is] with thee, O mighty one of valour.'
13 And Gideon saith unto him, `O, my lord -- and Jehovah is with us! -- and why hath all this found us? and where [are] all His wonders which our fathers recounted to us, saying, Hath not Jehovah brought us up out of Egypt? and now Jehovah hath left us, and doth give us into the hand of Midian.'
14 And Jehovah turneth unto him and saith, `Go in this -- thy power; and thou hast saved Israel out of the hand of Midian -- have not I sent thee.'
15 And he saith unto him, `O, my lord, wherewith do I save Israel? lo, my chief [is] weak in Manasseh, and I the least in the house of my father.'
16 And Jehovah saith unto him, `Because I am with thee -- thou hast smitten the Midianites as one man.'
17 And he saith unto Him, `If, I pray Thee, I have found grace in Thine eyes, then Thou hast done for me a sign that Thou art speaking with me.
18 Move not, I pray Thee, from this, till my coming in unto Thee, and I have brought out my present, and put it before Thee;' and he saith, `I -- I do abide till thy return.'
19 And Gideon hath gone in, and prepareth a kid of the goats, and of an ephah of flour unleavened things; the flesh he hath put in a basket, and the broth he hath put in a pot, and he bringeth out unto Him, unto the place of the oak, and bringeth [it] nigh.
20 And the messenger of God saith unto him, `Take the flesh and the unleavened things, and place on this rock -- and the broth pour out;' and he doth so.
21 And the messenger of Jehovah putteth forth the end of the staff which [is] in His hand, and cometh against the flesh, and against the unleavened things, and the fire goeth up out of the rock and consumeth the flesh and the unleavened things -- and the messenger of Jehovah hath gone from his eyes.
22 And Gideon seeth that He [is] a messenger of Jehovah, and Gideon saith, `Alas, Lord Jehovah! because that I have seen a messenger of Jehovah face to face!'
23 And Jehovah saith to him, `Peace to thee; fear not; thou dost not die.'
24 And Gideon buildeth there an altar to Jehovah, and calleth it Jehovah-Shalom, unto this day it [is] yet in Ophrah of the Abi-Ezrites.
25 And it cometh to pass, on that night, that Jehovah saith to him, `Take the young ox which [is] to thy father, and the second bullock of seven years, and thou hast thrown down the altar of Baal which [is] to thy father, and the shrine which [is] by it thou dost cut down,
26 and thou hast built an altar to Jehovah thy God on the top of this stronghold, by the arrangement, and hast taken the second bullock, and caused to ascend a burnt-offering with the wood of the shrine which thou cuttest down.'
27 And Gideon taketh ten men of his servants, and doth as Jehovah hath spoken unto him, and it cometh to pass, because he hath been afraid of the house of his father, and the men of the city, to do [it] by day, that he doth [it] by night.
28 And the men of the city rise early in the morning, and lo, broken down hath been the altar of Baal, and the shrine which is by it hath been cut down, and the second bullock hath been offered on the altar which is built.
29 And they say one to another, `Who hath done this thing?' and they inquire and seek, and they say, `Gideon son of Joash hath done this thing.'
30 And the men of the city say unto Joash, `Bring out thy son, and he dieth, because he hath broken down the altar of Baal, and because he hath cut down the shrine which [is] by it.'
31 And Joash saith to all who have stood against him, `Ye, do ye plead for Baal? ye -- do ye save him? he who pleadeth for him is put to death during the morning; if he [is] a god he himself doth plead against him, because he hath broken down his altar.'
32 And he calleth him, on that day, Jerubbaal, saying, `The Baal doth plead against him, because he hath broken down his altar.'
33 And all Midian and Amalek and the sons of the east have been gathered together, and pass over, and encamp in the valley of Jezreel,
34 and the Spirit of Jehovah hath clothed Gideon, and he bloweth with a trumpet, and Abi-Ezer is called after him;
35 and messengers he hath sent into all Manasseh, and it also is called after him; and messengers he hath sent into Asher, and into Zebulun, and into Naphtali, and they come up to meet them.
36 And Gideon saith unto God, `If Thou art Saviour of Israel by my hand, as Thou hast spoken,
37 lo, I am placing the fleece of wool in the threshing-floor: if dew is on the fleece alone, and on all the earth drought -- then I have known that Thou dost save Israel by my hand, as Thou hast spoken;'
38 and it is so, and he riseth early on the morrow, and presseth the fleece, and wringeth dew out of the fleece -- the fulness of the bowl, of water.
39 And Gideon saith unto God, `Let not Thine anger burn against me, and I speak only this time; let me try, I pray Thee, only this time with the fleece -- let there be, I pray Thee, drought on the fleece alone, and on all the earth let there be dew.'
40 And God doth so on that night, and there is drought on the fleece alone, and on all the earth there hath been dew.