What is the Purpose of Life?

[_Gazelam]

Either Jesus was the Christ, or he wasn't. If Jesus was the Christ, then the Mormon Church is true.

[_Dr. Shades]

Why do you connect the one with the other, especially considering that so many others do not see any need to do so?

[_Gazelam]

I have to sign off, so I'll give you the short answer.

To believe in Christ means being baptised and having his name sealed upon you, makeing you a Child of Christ and heir to his blessing through obedience to his teachings.

To be baptised requires authority.

The only ones with claim to authority are Catholics, Jews, or Mormons.

Take your pick.

Gaz

[_Runtu]

I have to sign off, so I'll give you the short answer.

To believe in Christ means being baptised and having his name sealed upon you, makeing you a Child of Christ and heir to his blessing through obedience to his teachings.

To be baptised requires authority.

The only ones with claim to authority are Catholics, Jews, or Mormons.

Take your pick.

Gaz

Isn't it fascinating that he defines Christianity by Mormon notions of authority?

[_MormonMendacity]

Very often I do not know what he is talking about...and I do not mean that with any disrespect.

Either Jesus was the Christ, or he wasn't. If Jesus was the Christ, then the Mormon Church is true.

Why couldn't Jesus be "the Christ" and Mormonism be false? I see no linkage there at all.

To believe in Christ means being baptised and having his name sealed upon you, makeing you a Child of Christ and heir to his blessing through obedience to his teachings.

To be baptised requires authority.

The only ones with claim to authority are Catholics, Jews, or Mormons.

And all of those facts come from a text authored to prove its own points. You really can't spout this doctrine from an objective position. I can simply deny that believing in Christ means being baptized. I know a lot of people who believe in him but don't accept the requirement for baptism.

Next, the notion that baptism requires authority is also absurd. There is no empirical evidence that proves the requirement of either baptism or baptism with authority...unless you rely on ancient, biased writings as your evidence.

Lastly, I claim authority, so include me in the group. Anybody else want in Gazelam's group? All you have to do is "claim authority" and you'll be right up there with Jews, Catholics, Mormons and me.

Isn't it fascinating that he defines Christianity by Mormon notions of authority?

Yeah. It's fascinating to me that so many people I know use that kind of reasoning to create a world view. His authority is what Mormonism tells him.

It's perfect.

[_Roger Morrison]

Gaz, my friend you are most welcome to your beliefs. I trust they serve you well.

However as the LDS establishment promalgates, at this time, the mythological Jesus i ask what is lost to humanity by seeing the validity of a human historical Jesus?

For the perusal of all, the thoughts of John Selby Spong are pasted below as he addresses the question. I trust it will be of interest.

sThere are other things that are so counter-intuitive about the way the Jesus story has been told that to me they constitute compelling additional evidence for his historicity. One is that Jesus is said to have come out of Nazareth, a dirty, petty and insignificant town that had a dreadful reputation. It was said even in the New Testament that people asked "can anything good come out of Nazareth" (see John 1:46)? His Nazareth and Galilean origins were an embarrassment to the Jesus movement. No one creates a myth that will embarrass them. It was undoubtedly this embarrassment that helped to create the myth of his birth in Bethlehem. One does not try to escape a lowly place of origin unless that place is so deeply a part of the person's identity that it cannot be suppressed. Jesus of Nazareth was a person of history.

Another counter-intuitive piece of data is that Jesus began his public life as a disciple of John the Baptist. John was originally the teacher that Jesus followed. That is why the gospels seem compelled to have John say constantly things like: "He must increase, I must decrease." "After me comes one whose shoelaces I am not worthy to tie." Luke goes so far as to have the fetus of John the Baptist leap to salute the fetus of Jesus before either was born. When people try to alter history it is not because there is no history, it is because the reality of history has caused embarrassment. The early Christians worked hard to prove that though John was older, he was quite secondary, the one who "prepared the way."

The third fact in the life of Jesus, to which we can point as history, is that Jesus was crucified. The Christian movement had to find a way to understand and even to celebrate his death, which ran counter to everything they believed about a messiah. If they could not transform his crucifixion, there would have been no resurrection. Indeed the resurrection was the story of that transformation. That took hard work. They did not do that by making up the story of the crucifixion. His death was real. The interpretation of his death as the gateway to life made the Christian faith possible.

Mythology was surely added to the Jesus of history even in the writings of the gospels, but those myths were placed on the back of a real person. Mark, writing in the 8th decade, said that at his baptism the heavens opened and the Holy Spirit poured out on him. Then Mark said that after his crucifixion that the grave could not contain him.

In the ninth decade, Matthew added such details to the growing mythology as the miraculous birth, the heavenly star, the wise men, and the physiological appearances of the raised Jesus. Some five to ten years after Matthew, Luke added to the developing story such parts of our tradition as the shepherds, the swaddling cloths and the appearances of the angels. Later he intensified the physical character of the resurrection until it became resuscitation back into the life of this world, which in turn necessitated his eventual escape from this earth in the story of the cosmic ascension. Still later John identified him with the Word of God spoken in creation. As these mythological layers were laid on top of him, his humanity began to fade. That is where the faith crisis of today emerges. We have begun to strip away the mythology, and as we do we begin to fear that there is nothing under it. So we hesitate and even pretend to believe what, when pressed, we would say we no longer believe. Many of the fundamentalist churches are made up of pretenders who reveal their vulnerability by getting angry whenever they are forced to face the game that they are playing. There is, I believe, another way. I am now convinced that only by recovering the full humanity of Jesus is there any possibility of seeing the meaning of his divinity. That is the dominant theme of my next book JESUS FOR THE NON-RELIGIOUS, which will be out in March of 2007. I see it as a radical restatement of the earliest Christian proclamation that in the human Jesus, the holy God has been encountered. I look forward to the debate and the dialogue that I hope this book will engender.

-- John Shelby Spong

Thoughts??? Warm regards, Roger

ize=18][/size]

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Gaz, you say:

""""This is silly to think. Of coarce you can know. The Holy Ghosts sole purpose is to act as a revelator and to give you firm ground to stand upon to know your place in the universe. Just as the North Star and the Big Dipper guided seaman in ancient times, the Gospel as revealed through the Holy Ghost allows you to know how to return to your Father in Heaven."""""

Respectfully Bro, this is how You see/understand it: Very subjective! This has been put into Your mind/soul through a process that is hardly universal in its effectiveness.

Let's say as the rising and setting of the sun is seen by all, objectively to occur without denial or the need to convince others of it doing so. You are at a distinct disadvantage trying to convince others of that which is without evidence.

IF HOWEVER, one could look at all those professing HG influence in their lives, and see something absolutely, uniquely superior to EVERYONE ELSE, then one might step back and see Your claim to be more credible than it is. Trite but we could liken it to those who live in sunlight and those who live without sunlight. They are readily identifieable. Their claims are unnesessary. One is tan the other is pale. Simplistic i know ...

BUT, since there is ample evidence of lots of folks doing lots of good-stuff, might that suggest to a thinking person, "the HG or, as most folks prefer, the Holy Spirit "grounds" everyone to purposeful, productive participation in the human experience. Whether they are aware of the means, they are not denied the way."

IMSCO, current LDSism is substituting good counselling, instruction and information with a medieval approach to present day human challenges. The opening article in Nov Ensign, i think by GBH, illustrates, to me, a floundering for answers that reverts to past practices relying on mysticism rather than intelligence.

Gaz, You seem under that influence to an inordinate degree. That it works for You i am pleased. IF/WHEN it doesn't work for others, don't be surprise, disappointed or without understanding why. Warm regards, Roger

[_Runtu]

Well said, Roger. In some ways, part of what makes Mormonism work is its insistence on wrapping everyday existence in a layer of mysticism. Even the smallest events and coincidences are seen as evidence of God's hand working in our lives or the guidance of the spirit.

What's really interesting to me is to realize that life pretty much works the same way for those of us on the outside, though we know longer see the same spiritual significance in every detail of our lives.

[_Gazelam]

Matthew 3:11-17

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
13 ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Son of God himself had need to be baptised. John the Baptist had the authority to Baptise, he being the bearer of the Aeronic Priesthood.

D&C 84:26-28
26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;
27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.
28 For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.

In speaking of John the Baptist Joseph Smith said: "John, at that time, was the only legal administrator in the affairs of the kingdom there was then on the earth, and holding the keys of power. The jews had to obey his instructions or be damned, by their own law; and Christ himself fulfilled all righteousness in becoming obedient to the law which he had given to Moses on the mount, and thereby magnified it and made it honerable, instead of destroying it. The son of Zacharias wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power, the glory from the jews, by the holy anointing and decree of heaven."

That baptism is a necessity is testified by both the Savior and the Apostles. Christ in John 3:3-5, and Paul in Romans 6:1-12

Gods house is a house of order. Unlike Rome, all roads do not lead to it. Baptism is a required of all who wish to be a member of Gods kingdom, it is the gate (2 Nephi 31:16-21). Baptism cannot be administered without proper authority (Romans 1:1, 1 Tim 4:14, Acts 19:13-16)

Few churchs claiming the name of Christ also claim authority to act in his name, saying that by merely confessing the name of Christ with their lips they can lay claim to being his heir and bear his name. To those who understand the need of authority, there are only three. The Jews lay claim , not understanding they have lost it with the coming of Christ and their rejection of him. The Catholics lay claim going back to the ancient Bishops that rose up with Constantine, saying that peter was the first Pope. That Peter had authority is without question, but over time false traditions and philosophies crept in and corrupted what was once true, and this happened quickly. They ".... strayed from mine ordinances and have broken mine everlasting covenant; They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own God...."

On the 15th of May 1829 John the Baptist returned to the Earth as a resurrected being to confer the Aeronic priesthood, being the Last to hold the keys of that office, upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry. In June of that same year Peter, James and John restored the Melchizedek priesthood. They themselves had received it from Christ, who had received it from Moses and Elijah. (Matt. 17:1-8, Heb. 5:1-6)

If jesus was the Christ, then The Church of Jesus of Latter -Day Saints is his Church. It is here that his authority is found. It is in his Church that his name may be sealed upon the children of the Father, making them heir to his great work.

Doctrine & Covenants 39:1-6

1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—
2 The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;
3 The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;
4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.

Gaz

[_Runtu]

On the 15th of May 1829 John the Baptist returned to the Earth as a resurrected being to confer the Aeronic priesthood, being the Last to hold the keys of that office, upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry. In June of that same year Peter, James and John restored the Melchizedek priesthood. They themselves had received it from Christ, who had received it from Moses and Elijah. (Matt. 17:1-8, Heb. 5:1-6)

If jesus was the Christ, then The Church of Jesus of Latter -Day Saints is his Church. It is here that his authority is found. It is in his Church that his name may be sealed upon the children of the Father, making them heir to his great work.

Can you give me some contemporaneous corroboration of these alleged visits, say, before 1832 or so?