Bible verse by verse

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Christianity didn't promote "Rosemary's Baby," "The Exorcist," "Poltergeist," etc...

Those are works of fiction. Are you pleading innocence on the grounds that you can't tell the difference between reality and fiction?

...Humanistic sensationalists did.

Uh, no--the secular community expressed unreserved skepticism toward unfounded rumors of a world-wide Satanic conspiracy. You may also recall that the FBI investigated these rumors and found no evidence of said conspiracy.

It is also interesting to note that the Lawyer told Dan and Francis Keller to skip town (apparently, a poor choice of words taken literally)................. He didn't suggest that they should pray for God's guidance...................

Oh, so it was Dan and Francis Keller's fault that they were wrongly convicted of crimes allegedly involving SRA.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I expected from you...

So now, are you going to try another ploy or are you going to apologize for throwing dirt on Christianity it is undeserving of?

Any dirt that was thrown on christianity as a result of the Satanic Panic was the fault of conservative christians (like you) who propagated these false and malicious rumors in the first place.

Humanism has been allowed center stage for well over 50 years. Don't blame Christianity for societies shortcomings.

No, I'm not blaming christianity for society's ills; I'm blaming conservative christians (like you) for A) the Satanic Panic, and B) the damage done to innocent victims like the Kellers. Next time pay attention. And stop fibbing. It makes Jesus cry when you tell fibs.

[_ludwigm]

2 Samuel 13

Another beautiful, uplifting story. Of words of god...

The son of the king rapes the daughter of the king.
Another son of the king kills the one mentioned above.

Fortunately they were only half-sisters and half-brothers.
Or subdecuple-sisters and subdecuple-brothers --- I don't know and don't care the amounts of David's wives.

[_huckelberry]

I think General Curtis E. LeMay has them all beat...excepting the god of the old testament.

God Old Testament would be general of a bloody invasion of the promised land and associated Amalakites. Whatever one thinks of those military ventures I have doubts that the numbers fit your equation.

Surely you are not counting the fictional people in a flood?

[_huckelberry]

It is also interesting to note that the Lawyer told Dan and Francis Keller to skip town (apparently, a poor choice of words taken literally)................. He didn't suggest that they should pray for God's guidance...................

Oh, so it was Dan and Francis Keller's fault that they were wrongly convicted of crimes allegedly involving SRA.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I expected from you...

So now, are you going to try another ploy or are you going to apologize for throwing dirt on Christianity it is undeserving of?

Any dirt that was thrown on christianity as a result of the Satanic Panic was the fault of conservative christians (like you) who propagated these false and malicious rumors in the first place.

Humanism has been allowed center stage for well over 50 years. Don't blame Christianity for societies shortcomings.

No, I'm not blaming christianity for society's ills; I'm blaming conservative christians (like you) for A) the Satanic Panic, and B) the damage done to innocent victims like the Kellers. .

I have very divided feelings about this discussion. I am alarmed by the notion that Christianity does not share in the guilt of societies evils. Historically it is very clear that it does share. The idea of dividing people into bad secularists and good Christians is false and an ongoing evil influence on society.It is fundamental Christian principal that we all er.

I can see what I suspect could be connections between Christian culture and that Satanic Panic. My memory was not bring up many details at first. Erotic Apologist I was glad you posted the link to the article to help my memory. It did remind me of the story but made no connections to Christian fear mongers being the cause. I live in Washington state and I do remember there was a long similar legal conflict in Wenatchee. Much was connected to a possibly ambitions prosecuting attorney. There were stories that grew more alarming and then grew more doubtful.I suspect a cluster of human qualities might contribute to this sort of thing. Parental fear for children welfare and children attraction to alarming stories might explain a good bit. I have a friend living in that town who believes a significant number of people living there are given to believing doubtful things. There was once a scare when many came to believe the united nations had joined forces with Canada to launch in invasion across the unguarded border in the Paysatin wilderness. Groups of armed men gathered to repulse the invasion at likely routes down out of the mountains. I mention this to suggest that garbled paranoia happens to people and can generate witch hunts. (ok some people may be more given to that than others)

Do you have more than similarities in preferred names for bad guys to focus blame for those witch hunts on some Christians? I am unsure. You suggest a focused intentional program within some Christian circles. Is that some thing specific or just a suspicion or witch hunt?

How do the accusations of Hughe Nibley's daughter which have been discussed here a number of times fit in this? Was her Psychologist a fundamentalist plant?

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Do you have more than similarities in preferred names for bad guys to focus blame for those witch hunts on some Christians? I am unsure. You suggest a focused intentional program within some Christian circles. Is that some thing specific or just a suspicion or witch hunt?

It says much that rumors of a world-wide Satanic conspiracy coincided with the rise of Conservative Christianity as a force in American politics during the '80's. These rumors were clearly propagated as part of a cynical strategy to mobilize a political constituency at the start the so-called Reagan Revolution. The amoral lawyers and unethical therapists who exploited the ensuing moral panic were merely accessories after the fact, because you can't have a Satanic Panic unless you first have a close-knit community of Christians who believe in a Biblical Satan.

Conservative Christianity's assumptions and superstitions regarding Satanism informed the scope and character of the moral panic that followed. A Mormon Satanic Panic would obviously be very different from a Christian Satanic Panic. Likewise, an Islamic Satanic Panic would also be very different from a Christian Satanic Panic.

Here's what Religious Tolerance dot org (http://www.religioustolerance.org/austin.htm) says about the Keller case:

Accusations of ritual abuse of children and Satanic worship were common during the 1980's and early 1990's throughout North America. They eventually spread to some other English speaking countries. New accusations have since died out. The general belief now is that these charges of ritual abuse and Satanic Ritual Abuse were a form of Satanic Panic, and that the dozens of adults who were imprisoned for ritual abuse were innocent of abusing children. In fact, it is very likely that no ritual abuse even happened.

One of the last cases in North America occurred in Oak Hill, a suburb of Austin, Texas, where Frances and Dan Keller operated a preschool center. On the claims of a young child, the couple was arrested. They were later convicted in 1992 of child abuse of a young girl. Each was given a 48 year sentence. A series of fantastic claims similar to those made in other ritual abuse cases surfaced of strange activities in front of the children at the preschool. Three children claimed that this included:

Killing and dismembering of dogs and cats.

Killing and dismembering a crying human baby.

Forcing children to have videotaped sex with adults and other children

Shooting an adult and chopping up the body with a chainsaw.

Burying the bodies of dead children.

Adding blood to drinks and serving them to the children.

Flying children to Mexico, Las Vegas, California, or Japan so that they could be sexually abused and then returned.

Having dinosaurs and sharks in their swimming pool.

Attorney Keith Hampton, who represented Frances Keller, said: 'The case was a true witch hunt because the investigators actually believed that this was part of a wide Satanic conspiracy.'

By today's standards, one would expect that the investigators would wonder how multiple children could have been taken from the preschool, flown to another country, returned to Texas, and not have been so severely traumatized that their parents would have suspected serious abuse. One would expect that parents who occasionally visited the preschool during the day might notice their child or children missing. However, there was a real, "Satanic Panic" throughout North America at the time that was particularly widespread among religious conservatives. Reason often "flew out the window" when Satanists were allegedly involved.

Three parts of the trial seems to have been particularly influential in the Kellers' convictions:

The girl who was identified by the physician as having been sexually assaulted described the various forms of abuse that allegedly occurred. She now says that no abuse happened and that she had been instructed at the time to say that it had.

Dr Michael Mouw, who testified about the abuse has now recanted his testimony. He has issued an affidavit stating: "While my testimony was based on a good faith belief at that time, I now realize my conclusion is not scientifically or medically valid, and that I was mistaken."

He had little training at the time on how to examine young girls for sexual abuse. He testified that what he thought were twp lacerations on the hymen of one of the girl's was an indication of sexual abuse within the previous 24 hours. He now believes that what he observed was normal physiology. His testimony at trial was the only hard evidence evidence that abuse might have occurred.

Doug Perry, who worked at the center, had told investigators that he and two friends had participated in sexual activities. He has since recanted his story, claiming he’d been coerced by the police.

With the collapse of any evidence of abuse, Frances Keller, 63, was released from prison on 2013-NOV-26. Her husband, Dan Keller, 71, is expected to be released a few days later. Both had maintained their innocence for over two decades. They have not seen each other for over two decades.

Rosemary Lehmberg, the district attorney for Travis County, Texas, issued a statement saying:

"There is a reasonable likelihood that (the medical expert's) false testimony affected the judgment of the jury and violated Frances Keller's right to a fair trial."

The National Center for Reason and Justice attempts to have person wrongfully imprisoned released. Spokesperson Debbie Nathan said that between 1984 and 1989, about 100 American adults were charged with ritual sex abuse, 50 of whom were placed on trial.

Keith Hampton said:

"You are soon going to see a flood of exoneration on these sexual abuse cases."

[_LittleNipper]

So you are saying that Catholic Priests who were accused of sexual activity with young boys who later became atheists are now being seen as trumped up charges? Or is that "witch hunt acceptable in your eyes?

[_Bazooka]

Nipper, at what age do individuals become capable of committing sin?

[_The Erotic Apologist]

So you are saying that Catholic Priests who were accused of sexual activity with young boys who later became atheists are now being seen as trumped up charges? Or is that "witch hunt acceptable in your eyes?

No, Nipper, that's precisely not what I'm saying.

Nipper, I'd like you to meet Dawn Kelly and Bob Wilson who in 1989 worked at the Little Rascals day care center in Edenton, North Carolina.

Dawn and Bob were arrested by investigators who had recently attended a Satanic Ritual Abuse seminar. Using techniques learned at the SRA seminar, investigators coercively interrogated some 90 children from Little Rascals who, under duress, accused Dawn and Bob of crimes consistent with SRA. On the strength of this "evidence", Bob was convicted and sentenced to twelve consecutive life sentences. Dawn was likewise convicted and received life in prison with no parole for twenty years.

Bob's and Dawn's convictions were eventually overturned on the grounds of gross investigative and prosecutorial misconduct.

Nipper, do feel any remorse at all for your part in propagating the false and malicious rumors that contributed to the pain and suffering inflicted on innocent parties like Dawn and Bob? What have you and the rest of the Conservative Christian community done to make amends to innocent victims like Dawn and Bob?

If you'd like to learn more, PBS offers an excellent 3-part series dealing with the Little Rascals case entitled Innocence Lost.

[_huckelberry]

It says much that rumors of a world-wide Satanic conspiracy coincided with the rise of Conservative Christianity as a force in American politics during the '80's. These rumors were clearly propagated as part of a cynical strategy to mobilize a political constituency at the start the so-called Reagan Revolution. The amoral lawyers and unethical therapists who exploited the ensuing moral panic were merely accessories after the fact, because you can't have a Satanic Panic unless you first have a close-knit community of Christians who believe in a Biblical Satan.

Conservative Christianity's assumptions and superstitions regarding Satanism informed the scope and character of the moral panic that followed. A Mormon Satanic Panic would obviously be very different from a Christian Satanic Panic. Likewise, an Islamic Satanic Panic would also be very different from a Christian Satanic Panic.
/////
Dawn and Bob were arrested by investigators who had recently attended a Satanic Ritual Abuse seminar. Using techniques learned at the SRA seminar, investigators coercively interrogated some 90 children from Little Rascals who, under duress, accused Dawn and Bob of crimes consistent with SRA. On the strength of this "evidence", Bob was convicted and sentenced to twelve consecutive life sentences. Dawn was likewise convicted and received life in prison with no parole for twenty years.

Erotic Apologist, I selected from a couple of posts , hope you do not mind.I was hoping that the connections and responsiblities referred to could be clarified. I think you got closer referencing a seminar. Where did such a thing come from?

I do not believe your comment that a panic would only happen where there is a close knit Christian community believeing in a Biblical satan. I think all kinds of cultures imaginatively condense human evil into images of witches. They are hardly a Christian invention. They, good and bad, may be humans oldest most longlasting religion. People in all sorts of cultures fear them or at least the evil versions.

You and I may be sharing a view that disrgarding evidence in favor of beliefs generated by faith could lead to false accustions. We may share a repugnance for accusing some outsiders like atheists of a moral degeneracy lacking in the in group. I think that sort of imaginary moral universe is conducive to witch hunts. Yet despite both of these corruptions of the capacity for sound judgement persisting in societies witch hunts are the unusual instead of usual. You propose intentianal agents for this particular hysteria. You may know more than I , I am asking.

There is the background of a real witch, Manson, in peoples fear. (true with or without any supernatural connection to his actions) There is a cultural rise through the 70's of people desiring to be witches though most of that was intended as positive nature observance. People could easily fear it as unknown and maybe dangerous. Any social change and uncertainity is potential fuel for these things. Some studies of Salem suggest internal community conflicts.

I can see as responsible poor habits of judgement and possible people manipulating the general idea for power and monetary gain as you suggested.

Upon whom all does the shadow of blame fall in your view?.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Erotic Apologist, I selected from a couple of posts , hope you do not mind.I was hoping that the connections and responsiblities referred to could be clarified

No, I don't mind at all.

I think you got closer referencing a seminar. Where did such a thing come from?

There's a ton of information available online concerning the Little Rascals investigation. A good place to start would be here: http://littlerascalsdaycarecase.org/

You would also do well to get access to a copy of PBS's three part documentary I mentioned in my previous post.

I do not believe your comment that a panic would only happen where there is a close knit Christian community believeing in a Biblical satan.

I'm not talking about a generic wave of panic that may or may not have swept through Conservative Christian communities in the 80's. Rather, I'm talking a very specific and well documented phenomenon known as a moral panic. It stands to reason that a moral panic about Satanists in a Christian community will be informed by the Bible's depiction of Satan. Conversely, it will not be informed by a Quranic depiction of Satan, nor will be be informed by the Haitian Vodou depiction of Satan, nor will it be informed by Mormonism's depiction of Satan. These are all very different from how Conservative Christians view Satan.

I think all kinds of cultures imaginatively condense human evil into images of witches. They are hardly a Christian invention. They, good and bad, may be humans oldest most longlasting religion. People in all sorts of cultures fear them or at least the evil versions.

Agreed.

You and I may be sharing a view that disrgarding evidence in favor of beliefs generated by faith could lead to false accustions.

What specific evidence do you think I'm ignoring, and how is it significant?

We may share a repugnance for accusing some outsiders like atheists of a moral degeneracy lacking in the in group.

I'm not accusing outsiders of moral degeneracy. Furthermore, I'm not even making an accusation. What I'm doing is referencing and paraphrasing existing documentation of the moral panic that has come to be known as the "Satanic Panic".

I think that sort of imaginary moral universe is conducive to witch hunts. Yet despite both of these corruptions of the capacity for sound judgement persisting in societies witch hunts are the unusual instead of usual. You propose intentianal agents for this particular hysteria. You may know more than I , I am asking.

Agreed, but I'm not addressing witchhunts that took place in Salem, and that still take place in other parts of the world. I'm specifically addressing the moral panic that went on from early 80's to the mid 90's in the United States, which coincided with the rise of Conservative Christianity. Admittedly this is an extremely broad and complex topic, and any information I post will barely scratch the surface. But it's also an extremely well-documented topic, and there's nothing to stop you from doing your own research.

There is the background of a real witch, Manson, in peoples fear. (true with or without any supernatural connection to his actions)

The crimes for which Charles Manson and his followers were convicted are very different from those attributed to members of an alleged world-wide Satanic conspiracy. The biggest difference is that the Manson Family is real, while the alleged world-wide Satanic conspiracy is a myth.

There is a cultural rise through the 70's of people desiring to be witches though most of that was intended as positive nature observance. People could easily fear it as unknown and maybe dangerous. Any social change and uncertainity is potential fuel for these things. Some studies of Salem suggest internal community conflicts.

Agreed, but I don't see how any of that is directly relevant to the Satanic Panic of the 80's and 90's.

I can see as responsible poor habits of judgement and possible people manipulating the general idea for power and monetary gain as you suggested.

Agreed.

Upon whom all does the shadow of blame fall in your view?.

I would say the blame rests on--to varying degrees--those responsible for the rise of Conservative Christianity as a political force during the early 80's. I think anybody who passed along or amplified rumors of a world-wide Satanic conspiracy bears a degree of responsibility.