2 Samuel 24:1-25 Again the Lord was angered at Israel, and caused David to harm them by taking a census. “Go and count the people of Israel and Judah,” the Lord told him. The king told Joab and the commanders of the army, to take a count of all the tribes of Israel—from Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south. Joab questioned this request...
he king insisted that they take the census, so Joab and the commanders of the army went out to count the people of Israel. First they crossed the Jordan and camped at Aroer, south of the town in the valley, in the direction of Gad. Then they went on to Jazer, then to Gilead in the land of Tahtim-hodshi and to Dan-jaan and around to Sidon. Then they came to the fortress of Tyre, and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went south to Judah as far as Beersheba. Having gone through the entire land for nine months and twenty days, they returned to Jerusalem. Joab reported the number of people to the king. There were 800,000 capable warriors in Israel who could handle a sword, and 500,000 in Judah.
After he had taken the census, David’s conscience began to bother him. And he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly by taking this census. Please forgive my guilt, Lord, for doing this foolish thing.” The next morning the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, who was David’s seer. This was the message: “Go and say to David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I will give you three choices. Choose one of these punishments, and I will inflict it on you.’”
So Gad came to David and asked him, “Will you choose three years of famine throughout your land, three months of fleeing from your enemies, or three days of severe plague throughout your land? Think this over and decide what answer I should give the Lord who sent me.”
“I’m in a desperate situation!” David replied to Gad. “But let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great. Do not let me fall into human hands.” So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel that morning, and it lasted for three days. A total of 70,000 people died throughout the nation, from Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south. But as the angel was preparing to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented and said to the death angel, “Stop! That is enough!” At that moment the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
When David saw the angel, he said to the Lord, “I am the one who has sinned and done wrong! But these people are as innocent as sheep—what have they done? Let your anger fall against me and my family.” That day Gad came to David and said to him, “Go up and build an altar to the Lord on the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.”
David went to do what the Lord had commanded. Araunah saw the king and his men coming toward him, he came and bowed before the king with his face to the ground. “Why have you come, my lord the king?” Araunah asked. David replied, “I have come to buy your threshing floor and to build an altar to the Lord there, so that he will stop the plague.”
“Take it, my lord the king, and use it as you wish,” Araunah said to David. “Here are oxen for the burnt offering, and you can use the threshing boards and ox yokes for wood to build a fire on the altar." But the king replied to Araunah, “No, I insist on buying it, for I will not present burnt offerings to the Lord my God that have cost me nothing.” So David paid him fifty pieces of silver for the threshing floor and the oxen. David built an altar there to the Lord and sacrificed burnt offerings and peace offerings. And the Lord answered his prayer for the land, and the plague on Israel was stopped.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And the anger of Jehovah addeth to burn against Israel, and [an adversary] moveth David about them, saying, `Go, number Israel and Judah.'
2 And the king saith unto Joab, head of the host that [is] with him, `Go to and fro, I pray thee, through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even unto Beer-Sheba, and inspect ye the people -- and I have known the number of the people.'
3 And Joab saith unto the king, `Yea, Jehovah thy God doth add unto the people, as they are, a hundred times, and the eyes of my lord the king are seeing; and my lord the king, why is he desirous of this thing?'
4 And the word of the king is severe towards Joab, and against the heads of the force, and Joab goeth out, and the heads of the force, [from] before the king to inspect the people, even Israel;
5 and they pass over the Jordan, and encamp in Aroer, on the right of the city that [is] in the midst of the brook of Gad, and unto Jazer,
6 and they come in to Gilead, and unto the land of Tahtim-Hodshi, and they come in to Dan-Jaan, and round about unto Zidon,
7 and they come in to the fortress of Tyre, and all the cities of the Hivite, and of the Canaanite, and go out unto the south of Judah, to Beer-Sheba.
8 And they go to and fro through all the land, and come in at the end of nine months and twenty days to Jerusalem,
9 and Joab giveth the account of the inspection of the people unto the king, and Israel is eight hundred thousand men of valour, drawing sword, and the men of Judah five hundred thousand men.
10 And the heart of David smiteth him, after that he hath numbered the people, and David saith unto Jehovah, `I have sinned greatly in that which I have done, and now, O Jehovah, cause to pass away, I pray Thee, the iniquity of Thy servant, for I have acted very foolishly.'
11 And David riseth in the morning, and the word of Jehovah hath been unto Gad the prophet, seer of David, saying,
12 `Go, and thou hast spoken unto David, Thus said Jehovah: Three -- I am lifting up for thee, choose thee one of them, and I do [it] to thee.'
13 And Gad cometh in unto David, and declareth to him, and saith to him, `Do seven years of famine come in to thee in thy land? or three months art thou fleeing before thine adversary -- and he pursuing thee? or are three days' pestilence in thy land? now, know and see what word I take back to Him sending me.'
14 And David saith unto Gad, `I have great distress, let us fall, I pray thee, into the hand of Jehovah, for many [are] His mercies, and into the hand of man let me not fall.'
15 And Jehovah giveth a pestilence on Israel from the morning even unto the time appointed, and there die of the people, from Dan even unto Beer-Sheba, seventy thousand men,
16 and the messenger putteth forth his hand to Jerusalem to destroy it, and Jehovah repenteth concerning the evil, and saith to the messenger who is destroying among the people, `Enough, now, cease thy hand;' and the messenger of Jehovah was near the threshing-floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 And David speaketh unto Jehovah, when he seeth the messenger who is smiting among the people, and saith, `Lo, I have sinned, yea, I have done perversely; and these -- the flock -- what have they done? Let, I pray Thee, Thy hand be on me, and on the house of my father.'
18 And Gad cometh in unto David on that day, and saith to him, `Go up, raise to Jehovah an altar in the threshing-floor of Araunah the Jebusite;'
19 and David goeth up, according to the word of Gad, as Jehovah commanded.
20 And Araunah looketh, and seeth the king and his servants passing over unto him, and Araunah goeth out and boweth himself to the king -- his face to the earth.
21 And Araunah saith, `Wherefore hath my lord the king come unto his servant?' and David saith, `To buy from thee the threshing-floor, to build an altar to Jehovah, and the plague is restrained from the people.'
22 And Araunah saith unto David, `Let my lord the king take and cause to ascend that which is good in his eyes; see, the oxen for a burnt-offering, and the threshing instruments, and the instruments of the oxen, for wood;'
23 the whole hath Araunah given, [as] a king to a king; and Araunah saith unto the king, `Jehovah thy God doth accept thee.'
24 And the king saith unto Araunah, `Nay, for I do surely buy from thee for a price, and I do not cause to ascend to Jehovah my God burnt-offerings for nought;' and David buyeth the threshing-floor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver,
25 and David buildeth there an altar to Jehovah, and causeth to ascend burnt-offerings and peace-offerings, and Jehovah is entreated for the land, and the plague is restrained from Israel.
Bible verse by verse
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_LittleNipper
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Re: Bible verse by verse
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 20, 2014 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_LeVay
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Re: Bible verse by verse
HAIL SATAN!
To return to the survey, LaVey’s influential publication was also referred to a number of times in response to other questionnaire items. For example, one person noted that, “because I agree with and practice the majority of the beliefs set forth in The Satanic Bible and other works of Dr. LaVey, I VERY MUCH consider myself just as valid a Satanist as any ‘official’ priest.”
Another respondent wrote, “Satan is merely a word, a representative concept that encompasses all that the Satanic Bible teaches.” And yet another individual stated: “To me, Satan is the personification of mankind’s carnal nature. More information can be found in The Satanic Bible by Anton Szandor LaVey.”
My strong impression was that The Satanic Bible was a doctrinal touchstone for most participants in this movement, despite the fact that the great majority of my sample were not formal members of Anton LaVey’s Church of Satan. (One respondent, noting that he was not a member of any organization, wrote, “[It’s] just me and my Satanic Bible.”) And whatever LaVey had in mind when he (or his publisher) entitled this publication, in certain ways The Satanic Bible has come to play the role of a “Bible” for many members of this decentralized, anti‐authoritarian subculture.
In a follow‐up questionnaire, respondents were explicitly asked how they regarded the Satanic Bible, and to what extent their personal philosophies aligned with the ideas expressed in its pages. Most stated that their view of the world aligned significantly with the Satanic Bible. One Satanist said that the Satanic Bible was about the realities of human nature, so that there was “nothing [in the Satanic Bible] that I didn’t already know or believe myself prior to reading it.” Only one respondent completely rejected the LaVeyan tradition. Two respondents asserted that they regarded the Satanic Bible as just another “self‐help book.”
Some respondents diminished (without disparaging) the Satanic Bible as an “introductory text” or “primer” of Satanism. (An assessment LaVey himself would have agreed with; see LaVey interviews in Moynihan and Soderlind 1998, p. 234, and in Baddeley 1999, p.79.) Most hastened to add that they did not regard it as “dogma.”
Although Satanists certainly do not look at The Satanic Bible in the same way more traditional religionists regard their sacred texts, I found that The Satanic Bible is regarded as an authoritative document which effectively functions as scripture within the Satanist community. The status of this book as a kind of a quasi‐scripture was brought to my attention during my very first face‐to‐face visit with Satanists in the Spring of 2000. Via the internet, I had found a small Satanist group in Portage, Wisconsin, which is about an hour south of where I reside. This group, the Temple of Lylyth, distinguished itself from the LaVeyan tradition chiefly by its emphasis on feminine nature of the Dark Power. I arranged to meet with them in Portage on a Friday evening.
Over the course of our conversation, the founder and then leader of the group mentioned that on Friday evenings he was usually downtown where a small group of fervent Christians regularly set up what might be called a “preaching station” to spread the Gospel. This young fellow (he was 19 at the time) would confront them as a practicing Satanist. He always carried a copy of The Satanic Bible with him, not just so he could quote some of accusations LaVey leveled against Christianity, but also so he could correct anything these evangelists might say about Satanism by citing an authoritative source. I’m sure this is something of a caricature, but I was left with an impression of dueling religionists, Christians hurling Bible verses at my informant as he matched blow for blow with quotes from The Satanic Bible. This experience led me to pay attention whenever other Satanists mentioned The Satanic Bible.
One can acquire a sense of how The Satanic Bible is regarded as a doctrinal touchstone by perusing the official website of the Church of Satan (http://www.churchofsatan.com). For example, the “Satanism FAQ” section of the “Church of Satan Information Pack” states that “critically reading The Satanic Bible by Anton Szandor LaVey is tantamount to understanding at least the basics of Satanism.” Similarly, the Church’s “Church of Satan Youth Communique” asserts that “Dr. LaVey wrote The Satanic Bible so that people could pick up a copy, read it, and know everything they need to know about Satanism and how to put it to work in their own lives.”
In addition to these general assertions, one can find other essays on the Church of Satan (CoS) website in which authoritative tenets are cited from The Satanic Bible, as when the “Satanic Bunco Sheet” notes that “The Satanic Bible advises to ‘question all things’....”
Finally, I found it interesting that one of the accusations leveled against non‐CoS Satanists in the “Recognizing Pseudo‐Satanism” essay was that in such groups, “The words of The Satanic Bible become twisted and distorted until they no longer have useful meaning!” Both of these passages‐the first quoting The Satanic Bible to make a point and the second accusing heretical breakaways of warping The Satanic Bible’s meaning‐exemplify familiar patterns found in theological conflicts within traditional religions.
Quoting The Satanic Bible to legitimate a point of argument is not confined to representatives of the Church of Satan. The so called “Xloptuny Curse” is an interesting example of how some of the “heretics” have turned the message of LaVey’s writings to their own purposes. A short essay on “The Xloptuny Curse,” written by Joe Necchi, was posted on the official website of the First Church of Satan in the summer of 2000. (The First Church of Satan‐FCoS-is a newer Satanist organization founded by a former member of CoS whose brand of Satanism is very close to The Satanic Bible.) The text discusses the circumstances of a seemingly effective suicide curse that was leveled by Lord Egan, founder/leader of the FCoS, against Xloptuny (John C. Davis), an internet pugilist and member of the CoS. (We should be quick to note that Davis’s internet crusade was undertaken at his own initiative, and not as an official representative of CoS.) Less than a year before Davis blew his brains out, Egan had cursed Davis, specifying in a public, online communication that he would die by shooting himself.
The passage I would like to focus on for my present purposes is where Necchi remarks, What is interesting, however, is the way in which some have predictably tried to rationalize Xloptuny’s suicide as a Yukio Mishima‐inspired act of heroism. Ironically, those trying so hard to canonize Mr. Davis thusly now have decided to conveniently ignore the book they are always waving about like a black flag at most other times: The Satanic Bible. In this sense, we see that many Satanists really behave exactly like Christians: they follow the precepts of their religion when it’s easy to do so, when it suits them, but are quick to abandon them when it really counts.
Page 94 of The Satanic Bible specifically states: “Self‐sacrifice is not encouraged by the Satanic religion. Therefore, unless death comes as an indulgence because of extreme circumstances which make the termination of life a welcome relief from an unendurable earthly existence, suicide is frowned upon by the Satanic religion.” There is little ambiguity in this passage. As there is no reason to believe that Xloptuny was in “extreme circumstances which make the termination of life a welcome relief”; he died as a traitor to the Church whose cause he so often trumpeted, the defense of which he used as a rationale for his often black and bilious attacks on his enemies. Apparently “the great Dr. Anton LaVey’s” words meant little or nothing to John C. Davis when he arrived at the moment of truth.
Here again we see The Satanic Bible being quoted as an authoritative document in a manner similar to the way sacred texts are quoted in comparable conflicts within other religious traditions. In other words, “The Xloptuny Curse” is yet another example of how The Satanic Bible functions as a quasi‐scripture within the Satanist community.
Almost all Satanists‐particularly CoS Satanists‐would deny that The Satanic Bible is an
“inspired” document in anything like the sense in which the Christian Bible is regarded as an inspired book. Interestingly, however, there are a few individuals‐most notably Michael Aquino, a former CoS leader and founder of the Temple of Set‐who would regard this book as inspired. For example, in the relevant chapter in his history of the Church of Satan, Aquino asserts that:
The Satanic Bible [clothes] itself in the supernatural authority of the Prince of Darkness and his demons. Less this element, the Satanic Bible would be merely a social tract by Anton LaVey‐not High Priest of Satan, but just one more 1960s’‐counterculture‐cynic atop a soap‐box.
The substance of the Satanic Bible therefore turns upon Anton LaVey’s sincerity in believing himself to be the vehicle through which the entity known as Satan explains the mysteries of mankind’s existential predicament. To the extent that he did, the Satanic Bible deserves the dignity of its title. ...
Despite the haphazard nature of its assembly, ... we may therefore consider the Satanic Bible in its totality not as argumentative, but as inspired writing. Thus it assumes an importance by its very existence, not just by its content. (Aquino 1999, 53)
Although Aquino’s position on the inspired nature of The Satanic Bible would be rejected by most other professing Satanists, something approaching this position seems to be unconsciously informing their attitude toward this text.
To return to the survey, LaVey’s influential publication was also referred to a number of times in response to other questionnaire items. For example, one person noted that, “because I agree with and practice the majority of the beliefs set forth in The Satanic Bible and other works of Dr. LaVey, I VERY MUCH consider myself just as valid a Satanist as any ‘official’ priest.”
Another respondent wrote, “Satan is merely a word, a representative concept that encompasses all that the Satanic Bible teaches.” And yet another individual stated: “To me, Satan is the personification of mankind’s carnal nature. More information can be found in The Satanic Bible by Anton Szandor LaVey.”
My strong impression was that The Satanic Bible was a doctrinal touchstone for most participants in this movement, despite the fact that the great majority of my sample were not formal members of Anton LaVey’s Church of Satan. (One respondent, noting that he was not a member of any organization, wrote, “[It’s] just me and my Satanic Bible.”) And whatever LaVey had in mind when he (or his publisher) entitled this publication, in certain ways The Satanic Bible has come to play the role of a “Bible” for many members of this decentralized, anti‐authoritarian subculture.
In a follow‐up questionnaire, respondents were explicitly asked how they regarded the Satanic Bible, and to what extent their personal philosophies aligned with the ideas expressed in its pages. Most stated that their view of the world aligned significantly with the Satanic Bible. One Satanist said that the Satanic Bible was about the realities of human nature, so that there was “nothing [in the Satanic Bible] that I didn’t already know or believe myself prior to reading it.” Only one respondent completely rejected the LaVeyan tradition. Two respondents asserted that they regarded the Satanic Bible as just another “self‐help book.”
Some respondents diminished (without disparaging) the Satanic Bible as an “introductory text” or “primer” of Satanism. (An assessment LaVey himself would have agreed with; see LaVey interviews in Moynihan and Soderlind 1998, p. 234, and in Baddeley 1999, p.79.) Most hastened to add that they did not regard it as “dogma.”
Although Satanists certainly do not look at The Satanic Bible in the same way more traditional religionists regard their sacred texts, I found that The Satanic Bible is regarded as an authoritative document which effectively functions as scripture within the Satanist community. The status of this book as a kind of a quasi‐scripture was brought to my attention during my very first face‐to‐face visit with Satanists in the Spring of 2000. Via the internet, I had found a small Satanist group in Portage, Wisconsin, which is about an hour south of where I reside. This group, the Temple of Lylyth, distinguished itself from the LaVeyan tradition chiefly by its emphasis on feminine nature of the Dark Power. I arranged to meet with them in Portage on a Friday evening.
Over the course of our conversation, the founder and then leader of the group mentioned that on Friday evenings he was usually downtown where a small group of fervent Christians regularly set up what might be called a “preaching station” to spread the Gospel. This young fellow (he was 19 at the time) would confront them as a practicing Satanist. He always carried a copy of The Satanic Bible with him, not just so he could quote some of accusations LaVey leveled against Christianity, but also so he could correct anything these evangelists might say about Satanism by citing an authoritative source. I’m sure this is something of a caricature, but I was left with an impression of dueling religionists, Christians hurling Bible verses at my informant as he matched blow for blow with quotes from The Satanic Bible. This experience led me to pay attention whenever other Satanists mentioned The Satanic Bible.
One can acquire a sense of how The Satanic Bible is regarded as a doctrinal touchstone by perusing the official website of the Church of Satan (http://www.churchofsatan.com). For example, the “Satanism FAQ” section of the “Church of Satan Information Pack” states that “critically reading The Satanic Bible by Anton Szandor LaVey is tantamount to understanding at least the basics of Satanism.” Similarly, the Church’s “Church of Satan Youth Communique” asserts that “Dr. LaVey wrote The Satanic Bible so that people could pick up a copy, read it, and know everything they need to know about Satanism and how to put it to work in their own lives.”
In addition to these general assertions, one can find other essays on the Church of Satan (CoS) website in which authoritative tenets are cited from The Satanic Bible, as when the “Satanic Bunco Sheet” notes that “The Satanic Bible advises to ‘question all things’....”
Finally, I found it interesting that one of the accusations leveled against non‐CoS Satanists in the “Recognizing Pseudo‐Satanism” essay was that in such groups, “The words of The Satanic Bible become twisted and distorted until they no longer have useful meaning!” Both of these passages‐the first quoting The Satanic Bible to make a point and the second accusing heretical breakaways of warping The Satanic Bible’s meaning‐exemplify familiar patterns found in theological conflicts within traditional religions.
Quoting The Satanic Bible to legitimate a point of argument is not confined to representatives of the Church of Satan. The so called “Xloptuny Curse” is an interesting example of how some of the “heretics” have turned the message of LaVey’s writings to their own purposes. A short essay on “The Xloptuny Curse,” written by Joe Necchi, was posted on the official website of the First Church of Satan in the summer of 2000. (The First Church of Satan‐FCoS-is a newer Satanist organization founded by a former member of CoS whose brand of Satanism is very close to The Satanic Bible.) The text discusses the circumstances of a seemingly effective suicide curse that was leveled by Lord Egan, founder/leader of the FCoS, against Xloptuny (John C. Davis), an internet pugilist and member of the CoS. (We should be quick to note that Davis’s internet crusade was undertaken at his own initiative, and not as an official representative of CoS.) Less than a year before Davis blew his brains out, Egan had cursed Davis, specifying in a public, online communication that he would die by shooting himself.
The passage I would like to focus on for my present purposes is where Necchi remarks, What is interesting, however, is the way in which some have predictably tried to rationalize Xloptuny’s suicide as a Yukio Mishima‐inspired act of heroism. Ironically, those trying so hard to canonize Mr. Davis thusly now have decided to conveniently ignore the book they are always waving about like a black flag at most other times: The Satanic Bible. In this sense, we see that many Satanists really behave exactly like Christians: they follow the precepts of their religion when it’s easy to do so, when it suits them, but are quick to abandon them when it really counts.
Page 94 of The Satanic Bible specifically states: “Self‐sacrifice is not encouraged by the Satanic religion. Therefore, unless death comes as an indulgence because of extreme circumstances which make the termination of life a welcome relief from an unendurable earthly existence, suicide is frowned upon by the Satanic religion.” There is little ambiguity in this passage. As there is no reason to believe that Xloptuny was in “extreme circumstances which make the termination of life a welcome relief”; he died as a traitor to the Church whose cause he so often trumpeted, the defense of which he used as a rationale for his often black and bilious attacks on his enemies. Apparently “the great Dr. Anton LaVey’s” words meant little or nothing to John C. Davis when he arrived at the moment of truth.
Here again we see The Satanic Bible being quoted as an authoritative document in a manner similar to the way sacred texts are quoted in comparable conflicts within other religious traditions. In other words, “The Xloptuny Curse” is yet another example of how The Satanic Bible functions as a quasi‐scripture within the Satanist community.
Almost all Satanists‐particularly CoS Satanists‐would deny that The Satanic Bible is an
“inspired” document in anything like the sense in which the Christian Bible is regarded as an inspired book. Interestingly, however, there are a few individuals‐most notably Michael Aquino, a former CoS leader and founder of the Temple of Set‐who would regard this book as inspired. For example, in the relevant chapter in his history of the Church of Satan, Aquino asserts that:
The Satanic Bible [clothes] itself in the supernatural authority of the Prince of Darkness and his demons. Less this element, the Satanic Bible would be merely a social tract by Anton LaVey‐not High Priest of Satan, but just one more 1960s’‐counterculture‐cynic atop a soap‐box.
The substance of the Satanic Bible therefore turns upon Anton LaVey’s sincerity in believing himself to be the vehicle through which the entity known as Satan explains the mysteries of mankind’s existential predicament. To the extent that he did, the Satanic Bible deserves the dignity of its title. ...
Despite the haphazard nature of its assembly, ... we may therefore consider the Satanic Bible in its totality not as argumentative, but as inspired writing. Thus it assumes an importance by its very existence, not just by its content. (Aquino 1999, 53)
Although Aquino’s position on the inspired nature of The Satanic Bible would be rejected by most other professing Satanists, something approaching this position seems to be unconsciously informing their attitude toward this text.
REGIE SATANAS!
AVE SATANAS!
HAIL SATAN!
AVE SATANAS!
HAIL SATAN!
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_ludwigm
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 10158
- Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:07 am
Re: Bible verse by verse
At his chosen nation? Again?LittleNipper wrote:2 Samuel 24:1-25 Again the Lord was angered at Israel
The lord should have chosen Chinese people... They are less rebellious.
That omnibenevolent guy caused to harm A WHOLE NATION by the hands of his loved king?LittleNipper wrote:and caused David to harm them by taking a census
Apparently that omniscient guy had no problem with others around the world --- in that case the flood would have been a better solution.
Instead, the officials counted from 1 to 1300000 and this made a plague, killing seventy thousand men.
Today a real prophet should count only 1 - 2 - 3 ... by the way ...
----------------------------
Please, Mr. LittleNipper ! Answer me, if I may ask...
Do You really think this undiluted stupidity Yo are trying to stuff into our mouth has something to do with reality?
Did You ever imagined, that one of that seventy thousand killed are You? The other KILLED is Your wife, the more who KILLED are Your whole family --- because some officials counted the warriors (and didn't count women and children, as they were nobodies)?
Does this make sense for You?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
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_LittleNipper
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4518
- Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:49 pm
Re: Bible verse by verse
ludwigm wrote:At his chosen nation? Again?LittleNipper wrote:2 Samuel 24:1-25 Again the Lord was angered at Israel
The lord should have chosen Chinese people... They are less rebellious.That omnibenevolent guy caused to harm A WHOLE NATION by the hands of his loved king?LittleNipper wrote:and caused David to harm them by taking a census
Apparently that omniscient guy had no problem with others around the world --- in that case the flood would have been a better solution.
Instead, the officials counted from 1 to 1300000 and this made a plague, killing seventy thousand men.
Today a real prophet should count only 1 - 2 - 3 ... by the way ...
----------------------------
Please, Mr. LittleNipper ! Answer me, if I may ask...
Do You really think this undiluted stupidity Yo are trying to stuff into our mouth has something to do with reality?
Did You ever imagined, that one of that seventy thousand killed are You? The other KILLED is Your wife, the more who KILLED are Your whole family --- because some officials counted the warriors (and didn't count women and children, as they were nobodies)?
Does this make sense for You?
Actually, I see that what the Bible tells me is that what someone does can affect an entire nation ----- even the entire world. Many today imagine that what they do has no ramifications on anyone else. This I find very damaging in our society today. I believe that if my entire family died, we would indeed meet in heaven. You don't seem to have this hope and I am very sorry for this. We now have an advocate with the Father in Jesus Christ. He loves, he forgives, he saves, he changes lives, he gives us eternal life.
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_ludwigm
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 10158
- Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:07 am
Re: Bible verse by verse
You evade the answer.
What would You do (or say to us...) if Your whole innocent family would die in a plague --- as an aftermath of a census. A census in which they weren't counted at all...
--------------------------
1. - a little logic:
A census and a plague have nothing to do with each other.
2. - a little moral:
What kind of behaviour is, to command the king --- then shift the blame to that king?
3. - one more little fleck in history:
... let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great ... Great mercies? This seventy thousand men is only one example of hundreds. Today it would be called collateral damage, they were on a wrong place in a wrong time.
What would You do (or say to us...) if Your whole innocent family would die in a plague --- as an aftermath of a census. A census in which they weren't counted at all...
--------------------------
1. - a little logic:
A census and a plague have nothing to do with each other.
2. - a little moral:
What kind of behaviour is, to command the king --- then shift the blame to that king?
3. - one more little fleck in history:
... let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great ... Great mercies? This seventy thousand men is only one example of hundreds. Today it would be called collateral damage, they were on a wrong place in a wrong time.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
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_LittleNipper
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4518
- Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:49 pm
Re: Bible verse by verse
ludwigm wrote:You evade the answer.
What would You do (or say to us...) if Your whole innocent family would die in a plague --- as an aftermath of a census. A census in which they weren't counted at all...
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1. - a little logic:
A census and a plague have nothing to do with each other.
2. - a little moral:
What kind of behaviour is, to command the king --- then shift the blame to that king?
3. - one more little fleck in history:
... let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great ... Great mercies? This seventy thousand men is only one example of hundreds. Today it would be called collateral damage, they were on a wrong place in a wrong time.
Question: "Who incited David to take the census in 2 Samuel 24, God or Satan? Why was God so angry at David for taking the census? Why did God punish the Israelite people when it was David who ordered the census?"
Answer: The parallel account of the incident surrounding the census reveals it was Satan who incited David to take the census: “Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel” (1 Chronicles 21:1). However, the wording of 2 Samuel 24:1 says that it was God who “moved David” to take the census. This discrepancy can be explained by the understanding that sometimes God sovereignly permits Satan to act in order to achieve His purposes. God uses Satan in various ways, among them the refining, disciplining and purification of disobedient believers (Luke 22:31-32; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 2 Corinthians 12:7-10). Such is the case with David. God allowed Satan to tempt him, and David sinned, revealing his pride and allowing God to deal with him for it.
As to why God was angry at David, in those times, a man only had the right to count or number what belonged to him. Israel did not belong to David; Israel belonged to God. In Exodus 30:12 God told Moses, “When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the LORD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them.” It was up to God to command a census, and if David counted he should only do it at God's command, receiving a ransom to "atone" for the counting. This is why God was angry again with Israel and is also why David was “conscience-stricken” after he counted Israel. David knew it was wrong and begged God to take away the guilt of his sin (2 Samuel 24:10).
God gave David a choice of three punishments for his sin—three years of famine, three months of fleeing before his enemies, or three days of plague. David chose the third, and the Lord then punished Israel with a plague which killed 70,000 men from Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south. As for why God punished the whole nation for the sin of the king, that is exactly the question David asked in v. 17. Why, when he was the one who had sinned, did the people have to suffer? He even requested that God’s hand be against him and his family only, and that God would spare the people. But as with the account of Job, God chose not to give a reason for His actions. Perhaps it was because of Israel’s multiplied sins and rebellion against God throughout the centuries. Perhaps it was a lesson to the people (and to us as well) that the people suffer when their leaders go astray. The reality is that God didn’t justify His actions with a reason, nor does He have to.
The psalmist tells us, “As for God, His way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30). If God’s ways are “perfect,” then we can trust that whatever He does—and whatever He allows—is also perfect. This may not seem possible to us, but our minds are not God’s mind. It is true that we can’t expect to understand His mind perfectly, as He reminds us “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Nevertheless, our responsibility to God is to obey Him, to trust Him and to submit to His will, whether we understand it or not.
As we see in 2 Samuel 24:16 God was grieved because of the things that were happening to His people and called off the punishment. Even through His rebuke God still shows His love and mercy.
Recommended Resources: Bible Answers for Almost All Your Questions by Elmer L. Towns and Logos Bible Software.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/David-censu ... z32NoicKhM
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_ludwigm
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Re: Bible verse by verse
Bible-reciters can explain away everything.LittleNipper wrote:This discrepancy can be explained
This is a typical, artificial talking out of an inconsistent, barbarian system's description.
The godfather of the mafia has the capo to do the dirty work.LittleNipper wrote:sometimes God sovereignly permits Satan to act in order to achieve His purposes. God uses Satan in various ways
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My question again:
ludwigm wrote:What would You do (or say to us...) if Your whole innocent family would die in a plague --- as an aftermath of a census. A census in which they weren't counted at all...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
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_LittleNipper
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- Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:49 pm
Re: Bible verse by verse
ludwigm wrote:You evade the answer.
What would You do (or say to us...) if Your whole innocent family would die in a plague --- as an aftermath of a census. A census in which they weren't counted at all...
--------------------------
1. - a little logic:
A census and a plague have nothing to do with each other.
2. - a little moral:
What kind of behaviour is, to command the king --- then shift the blame to that king?
3. - one more little fleck in history:
... let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great ... Great mercies? This seventy thousand men is only one example of hundreds. Today it would be called collateral damage, they were on a wrong place in a wrong time.
Well, that would be difficult, since I'm also a member of my family and would be dead.
I guess I would say in heaven, I'm glad that's over. 
But seriously, shouldn't the government reinstitute and encourage prayer and Bible reading in education and quit worrying how many people there are. 
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_ludwigm
- _Emeritus
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- Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:07 am
Re: Bible verse by verse
LittleNipper wrote: But seriously, shouldn't the government reinstitute and encourage prayer and Bible reading in education and quit worrying how many people there are.
Seriously? Do You say this seriously?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
-
_LittleNipper
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4518
- Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:49 pm
Re: Bible verse by verse
ludwigm wrote:LittleNipper wrote: But seriously, shouldn't the government reinstitute and encourage prayer and Bible reading in education and quit worrying how many people there are.
Seriously? Do You say this seriously?
And what would you rather they read? 1984, Soylent Green, or Splendor in the Grass? At one time US students read from the Bible and also those "other" books. It was called a balanced education.
As for counting citizens, I still feel that the government should be more concerned with quality and not quantity.