Bible verse by verse

[_LittleNipper]

“It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).”
― Richard Dawkins

[_Gunnar]

Anyone who claims to take Answers in Genesis seriously is either abysmally ignorant about real science or despicably dishonest. Answers in Genesis unabashedly admits that they start out with the a priori assumption that everything in Genesis is absolutely true and inerrant and that they therefore reject out of hand anything that conflicts with Genesis, no matter how abundant or seemingly incontrovertible the supporting evidence. This is the very epitome of irrational bias, dogmatism and bigotry!

[_huckelberry]

Nipper have you read or are you familiar with Sherlock Holmes? He believed that looking at things found in the present can show what happened in the past.It is evidence which if put together can solve the mystery of crimes. Modern criminal investigation relies on such ideas.

The import point of that is not just what an item means but how does an item fit with other things. There is a gun. Does it fit the bullet which went through the victim? Where was the gun found? Where did the gun come from? All of the pieces need to fit together to get a picture of what happened.

In looking at rocks there is a big picture composed of many pieces. To study them one needs to see how they fit together to get the picture of what has been happening. On an earlier thread I explained that where I live the rocks are all volcanic. They are laying in many layers thousands of feet deep over the sedimentary rocks. If the sedimentary rocks came from the flood then the picture is that the flood happened millions of years ago. This is clear because the rock layers were laid done one layer at a time with soil and gravel in between. After these built up then there were mountains raised up where the basalt (the igneous or volcanic rocks) were raised up thousands of feet in some areas. That would be long after the flood. when the basalt blocks were reaised up the canyons started to erode. There are deep canyons eroded by tiny streams in a process starting long after the flood and taking some millions of years. (it would take some millions of years to erode the canyon even if it started the year after a world flood)

This is one step from moving from fragments to a big picture. It is looking at some very recent geological events. The area where I live has some even more recent events for comparison. There were huge floods which resulted from glaciers which left deep layers of sand and gravel in the valley where I live. I can see they erode fairly quickly. The local rivers have been busy at it. But of course they can wash away quickly , they are not rock like the deep canyons which take millions of years to erode.

[_Gunnar]

Nipper have you read or are you familiar with Sherlock Holmes? He believed that looking at things found in the present can show what happened in the past.It is evidence which if put together can solve the mystery of crimes. Modern criminal investigation relies on such ideas.

The import point of that is not just what an item means but how does an item fit with other things. There is a gun. Does it fit the bullet which went through the victim? Where was the gun found? Where did the gun come from? All of the pieces need to fit together to get a picture of what happened.

In looking at rocks there is a big picture composed of many pieces. To study them one needs to see how they fit together to get the picture of what has been happening. On an earlier thread I explained that where I live the rocks are all volcanic. They are laying in many layers thousands of feet deep over the sedimentary rocks. If the sedimentary rocks came from the flood then the picture is that the flood happened millions of years ago. This is clear because the rock layers were laid done one layer at a time with soil and gravel in between. After these built up then there were mountains raised up where the basalt (the igneous or volcanic rocks) were raised up thousands of feet in some areas. That would be long after the flood. when the basalt blocks were reaised up the canyons started to erode. There are deep canyons eroded by tiny streams in a process starting long after the flood and taking some millions of years. (it would take some millions of years to erode the canyon even if it started the year after a world flood)

This is one step from moving from fragments to a big picture. It is looking at some very recent geological events. The area where I live has some even more recent events for comparison. There were huge floods which resulted from glaciers which left deep layers of sand and gravel in the valley where I live. I can see they erode fairly quickly. The local rivers have been busy at it. But of course they can wash away quickly , they are not rock like the deep canyons which take millions of years to erode.

Great post, huckelberry! However, I doubt it will have much impact on LittleNipper. It doesn't matter to him how incontrovertible is the evidence you presented. It appears to conflict with his pre-conceived notion of the truth, based on his interpretation of Genesis, and thus, in his mind, is automatically wrong without question, and he will go through any mental gymnastics he can conceive of to avoid acknowledging the truth clearly indicated by that evidence.

[_maklelan]

“It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).”
― Richard Dawkins

You got a point to make here, Nipper?

[_Gunnar]

delete

[_LittleNipper]

Anyone who claims to take Answers in Genesis seriously is either abysmally ignorant about real science or despicably dishonest. Answers in Genesis unabashedly admits that they start out with the a priori assumption that everything in Genesis is absolutely true and inerrant and that they therefore reject out of hand anything that conflicts with Genesis, no matter how abundant or seemingly incontrovertible the supporting evidence. This is the very epitome of irrational bias, dogmatism and bigotry!

And the very same cannot be said of the atheists and agnostics who unabashedly admit that they start out from the point that there can be no God, and what is visible is all that exists? Isn't this the very epitome of irrational bias, dogmatism and bigotry? Or does this only play one way in your mind? The reality is that Answers in Genesis makes some very valid points that evolutionists and uniformitarians hate to admit. And additionally, as long as Christians only sat around and left all the imaginings & theorizing to evolutionists & uniformitarians, the latter were very content to simply promote their theories as the absolute truth using tax dollars as funding and public education as their temple.

Job 38:4

New International Version
"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.

[_LittleNipper]

1 Kings 21:1-29 Naboth, from Jezreel, owned a vineyard in Jezreel beside the palace of King Ahab of Samaria. One day Ahab said to Naboth, “Since your vineyard is so convenient to my palace, I would like to buy it to use as a vegetable garden. I will give you a better vineyard in exchange, or if you prefer, I will pay you for it.” Naboth replied, “Lord forbid that I should give you the inheritance that was passed down by my ancestors.”

Ahab went home mad and upset because of Naboth’s answer. The king went to bed sulking! Jezebel asked him. “What’s made you so upset that you’re not eating?” “I asked Naboth to sell me his vineyard or trade it, but he refused!” Ahab told her. “Are you the king of Israel or not?” Jezebel demanded. “Get up and eat something, and don’t worry about it. I’ll get you Naboth’s vineyard!”

Jezebel wrote letters in Ahab’s name, sealed them with his seal, and sent them to the elders and other leaders of the town where Naboth lived. In her letters she commanded: “Call the citizens together for fasting and prayer, and give Naboth a place of honor. And then seat two ne'er-do-wells across from him to accuse him of cursing God and the king. Then take him out and stone him to death.” So the elders and other town leaders followed the instructions Jezebel had written in the letters. And Naboth was dragged outside the town and stoned to death. The town leaders then sent word to Jezebel.

Jezebel heard the news, and said to Ahab, “You know the vineyard Naboth wouldn’t sell you? Well, you can have it now! He’s dead!” So Ahab immediately went down to the vineyard of Naboth to claim it.

But the Lord said to Elijah, “Go down to meet King Ahab of Israel, who rules in Samaria. He will be at Naboth’s vineyard in Jezreel, claiming it for himself. Give him this message: ‘This is what the Lord says: Wasn’t it enough that you killed Naboth? Must you rob him, too? Because you have done this, dogs will lick your blood at the very place where they licked the blood of Naboth!’” “My adversary, you have found me!” Ahab exclaimed to Elijah.

“Yes,” Elijah answered, “I have come because you have sold yourself to what is evil in the Lord’s sight. So now the Lord says, ‘I will bring disaster on you and consume you. I will destroy every one of your male descendants, slave and free alike, anywhere in Israel! I am going to destroy your family as I did the family of Jeroboam son of Nebat and the family of Baasha son of Ahijah, for you have made me very angry and have led Israel into sin.’

“And regarding Jezebel, the Lord says, ‘Dogs will eat Jezebel’s body at the plot of land in Jezreel.’ “The members of Ahab’s family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.” (No one else so completely sold himself to what was evil in the Lord’s sight as Ahab did under the influence of his wife Jezebel. His worst outrage was worshiping idols as the Amorites had done—the people whom the Lord had driven out from the land ahead of the Israelites.)

When Ahab heard this message, he tore his clothing, dressed in burlap, and fasted. He even slept in burlap and went about in deep mourning. Another message from the Lord came to Elijah: “Do you see how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has done this, I will not do what I promised during his lifetime. It will happen to his sons; I will destroy his dynasty.”

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And it cometh to pass, after these things, a vineyard hath been to Naboth the Jezreelite, that [is] in Jezreel, near the palace of Ahab king of Samaria,

2 and Ahab speaketh unto Naboth, saying, `Give to me thy vineyard, and it is to me for a garden of green herbs, for it [is] near by my house, and I give to thee in its stead a better vineyard than it; if good in thine eyes, I give to thee silver -- its price.'

3 And Naboth saith unto Ahab, `Far be it from me, by Jehovah, my giving the inheritance of my fathers to thee;'

4 and Ahab cometh in unto his house, sulky and wroth, because of the word that Naboth the Jezreelite hath spoken unto him when he saith, `I do not give to thee the inheritance of my fathers,' and he lieth down on his bed, and turneth round his face, and hath not eaten bread.

5 And Jezebel his wife cometh in unto him, and speaketh unto him, `What [is] this? -- thy spirit sulky, and thou art not eating bread!'

6 And he saith unto her, `Because I speak unto Naboth the Jezreelite, and say to him, Give to me thy vineyard for money, or if thou desire, I give to thee a vineyard in its stead; and he saith, I do not give to thee my vineyard.'

7 And Jezebel his wife saith unto him, `Thou now dost execute rule over Israel! rise, eat bread, and let thy heart be glad, -- I do give to thee the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite.'

8 And she writeth letters in the name of Ahab, and sealeth with his seal, and sendeth the letters unto the elders, and unto the freemen, who are in his city, those dwelling with Naboth,

9 and she writeth in the letters, saying, `Proclaim a fast, and cause Naboth to sit at the head of the people,

10 and cause two men -- sons of worthlessness -- to sit over-against him, and they testify of him, saying, Thou hast blessed God and Melech; and they have brought him out, and stoned him, and he dieth.'

11 And the men of his city, the elders and the freemen who are dwelling in his city, do as Jezebel hath sent unto them, as written in the letters that she sent unto them,

12 they have proclaimed a fast, and caused Naboth to sit at the head of the people,

13 and two men -- sons of worthlessness -- come in, and sit over-against him, and the men of worthlessness testify of him, even Naboth, before the people, saying, `Naboth blessed God and Melech;' and they take him out to the outside of the city, and stone him with stones, and he dieth;

14 and they send unto Jezebel, saying, `Naboth was stoned, and is dead.'

15 And it cometh to pass, at Jezebel's hearing that Naboth hath been stoned, and is dead, that Jezebel saith unto Ahab, `Rise, possess the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite, that he refused to give to thee for money, for Naboth is not alive but dead.'

16 And it cometh to pass, at Ahab's hearing that Naboth is dead, that Ahab riseth to go down unto the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite, to possess it.

17 And the word of Jehovah is unto Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

18 `Rise, go down to meet Ahab king of Israel, who [is] in Samaria, -- lo, in the vineyard of Naboth, whither he hath gone down to possess it,

19 and thou hast spoken unto him, saying, Thus said Jehovah, Hast thou murdered, and also possessed? and thou hast spoken unto him, saying, Thus said Jehovah, In the place where the dogs licked the blood of Naboth, do the dogs lick thy blood, even thine.'

20 And Ahab saith unto Elijah, `Hast thou found me, O mine enemy?' and he saith, `I have found -- because of thy selling thyself to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah;

21 lo, I am bringing in unto thee evil, and have taken away thy posterity, and cut off to Ahab those sitting on the wall, and restrained, and left, in Israel,

22 and given up thy house like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah, for the provocation with which thou hast provoked [Me], and dost cause Israel to sin.

23 `And also of Jezebel hath Jehovah spoken, saying, The dogs do eat Jezebel in the bulwark of Jezreel;

24 him who dieth of Ahab in a city do the dogs eat, and him who dieth in a field do fowl of the heavens eat;

25 surely there hath none been like Ahab, who sold himself to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, whom Jezebel his wife hath moved,

26 and he doth very abominably to go after the idols, according to all that the Amorite did whom Jehovah dispossessed from the presence of the sons of Israel.'

27 And it cometh to pass, at Ahab's hearing these words, that he rendeth his garments, and putteth sackcloth on his flesh, and fasteth, and lieth in sackcloth, and goeth gently.

28 And the word of Jehovah is unto Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

29 `Hast thou seen that Ahab hath been humbled before Me? because that he hath been humbled before Me, I bring not in the evil in his days; in the days of his son I bring in the evil on his house.'

[_maklelan]

And the very same cannot be said of the atheists and agnostics who unabashedly admit that they start out from the point that there can be no God, and what is visible is all that exists?

I don't know many atheists or agnostics who started from that point. Most of the ones I know start from a suspension of judgment and arrive at their position after finding a complete lack of evidence. As I pointed out, evidence is very, very important to religious folks when it comes to showing that other religions are wrong, so don't pretend that you start from a position of belief. You start from a position of arbitrary dogmatism and then pick and choose which evidence you're going to promote and which evidence you're going to reject.

Isn't this the very epitome of irrational bias, dogmatism and bigotry?

The sectarian and fundamentalist position is absolutely that. The agnostic or atheist position is usually not that, but there are certainly exceptions.

Or does this only play one way in your mind? The reality is that Answers in Genesis makes some very valid points that evolutionists and uniformitarians hate to admit.

They make absolutely no such points, and I defy you to quote a single one here on this board. I'm not inviting you to just link to an entire website, I want you to quote a single point, along with evidence or rationale, in your post. Can you do that, or is your claim just a flippant and broad one you make only because you know no one is going to go investigate an entire website?

And additionally, as long as Christians only sat around and left all the imaginings & theorizing to evolutionists & uniformitarians, the latter were very content to simply promote their theories as the absolute truth using tax dollars as funding and public education as their temple.

What mindless and uninformed dogmatism.

[_ludwigm]

The reality is that Answers in Genesis makes some very valid points

I want you to quote a single point, along with evidence or rationale, in your post.

"álom, álom, édes álom, álomkép"
Google translate it, beware the commas. (Dream, dream, sweet dream, a fantasy - if You are lazy)

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From where do come these words?
I will be now offtopic --- if one doesn't know what association is! The mod who moves this, be damned forever.

Please, watch the same words in an operetta:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVieZz6U ... lpage#t=38
.
Operetta is a music covered by pink syrup... see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operetta#Austria-Hungary
.