Book of Mormon Borrowings from the New Testament

[_Res Ipsa]

Ah, back from the dead. (Or, rather, the head cold from hell.)

I think Marg has put her finger on a part of this whole exercise that has been bothering me. If we start out by saying that God is not a part of what Smith did in writing the Book of Mormon, then parallelisms may be able to tell us something about how he wrote the book. But if God, is included as a possibility, then the parallels can't tell us anything.

So, as long as we aren't using the parallels as a test for the involvement of God in the process, I think we may be able to do something.

Roger, you were taking issue with some of my strong characterizations of data as "meaningless," etc. Here is what I mean. I have a jar with 1000 marbles. Each marble is either colored black or colored white. I'm going to draw a marble at random. What are the odds it will be white? The odds are not 50-50. The odds cannot be determined. "Cannot be determined" is not the same as "equal odds."

So, when you say God has three options but Smith has two, therefore the odds lean toward Smith being the author because 1/2 is greater than 1/3, that simply isn't the case. It looks that way because you arbitrarily assigned the initial odds of God v. Smith at 50-50. But, there is no basis for doing so. Note, you could have just have easily said: "we have five options, each of equal possibility. Joseph is the author of two, God of three. Therefore, the odds lean toward God being the author." That would also be wrong, for the same reason that your original statement was wrong: unknown odds does not mean equal odds.

When we get to vessr's 500 parallels, what we don't know is the answer to this question: how many parallels should we expect to find? Let's say, for instance, we took a copy of Stephen King's The Stand. Start with the first four words. Search the KJV for that sequence of words. Repeat with words 2-5. And so on. How many would we expect to find? I don't know. So, out of the gate, we don't know what 500 parallels really means? If we find 500 between the Bible and The Stand, would we conclude that King copied from The Bible?

But that's really not a fair test of Smith and the Book of Mormon because Smith had some familiarity with the Bible and was trying to write in the voice of the Bible. So, if we really wanted to figure out how many parallels we'd expect to find, we'd need to take a bunch of people who were familiar with the Bible and ask them to write a book of comparable length to the Book of Mormon that told the story of peoples in the Americas and a visit to them by the resurrected Jesus. Something like that. Then, we could count the parallels between each of these books and the Bible to get a baseline for what we should expect to find in the way of parallels. Without this kind of exercise, we don't have any sort of baseline to compare vessr's parallels to and so we actually don't know whether they mean anything at all.

Now, maybe someone has done a similar experiment in the area of investigating plagiarism. I don't know. But unless we have some fact-based idea of what we should expect in the way of parallels, we have no way of knowing what parallels between two specific books mean.

Now, if I understand you correctly Roger, you want to extend this analysis to parallels in Spaulding's writings. That sound like an easier problem to me because there's no reason to think Smith was attempting to write in the same "voice" as Smith. So perhaps we could compare the Book of Mormon to other writings of the same era that are roughly the same length as the Spaulding manuscript to get a baseline for what we should expect. Then we could contrast those results to the Book of Mormon v. Spaulding.

[_marg]

So, out of the gate, we don't know what 500 parallels really means? If we find 500 between the Bible and The Stand, would we conclude that King copied from The Bible?

What is involved with Vessr's noted parallels is they are from a text known i.e. a King James version translated from original texts written in Hebrew and Greek...and this can be verified. And from another text which allegedly was (I believe) a translation from Hebrew into Reformed Egyptian (written before the King Jame version existed and then supposedly Smith in 1830 approx. translated into english from that reformed Egyptian.

It took 40 + translators to prepare the King James Version. If translation was a matter of yielding only one possible translation..then 40 + translators would not have been necessary.

Under this scenario the question to ask is ..is it likely that translations from Hebrew & Greek into english and Reformed Egyptian into english of the same text would result in over 500 exact phrasing parallels? If it's not likely as Ludwigm illustrated due to the nature of translation..then what do the parallels likely indicate? Or what is the best most probable explanation for the parallels? And the answer to that is..that the most likely probable explanation for the parallels indicate the Book of Mormon writer/writers used the King James Bible ..that they did not translate as Smith claimed from another source written in Reformed Egyptian and that the Book of Mormon author either copied from it directly or less likely from memory.

[_marg]

I would suspect that God would place all kinds of odd devices of language in scripture. As a net to trap those who think themselves cleaver.

You see Roger this is why when one allows the assumption of God in a discussion ..then there is no rhyme or reason necessary in the argument...they can have God do anything.

[_vessr]

So, out of the gate, we don't know what 500 parallels really means? If we find 500 between the Bible and The Stand, would we conclude that King copied from The Bible?

What is involved with Vessr's noted parallels is they are from a text known i.e. a King James version translated from original texts written in Hebrew and Greek...and this can be verified. And from another text which allegedly was (I believe) a translation from Hebrew into Reformed Egyptian (written before the King Jame version existed and then supposedly Smith in 1830 approx. translated into english from that reformed Egyptian.

It took 40 + translators to prepare the King James Version. If translation was a matter of yielding only one possible translation..then 40 + translators would not have been necessary.

Under this scenario the question to ask is ..is it likely that translations from Hebrew & Greek into english and Reformed Egyptian into english of the same text would result in over 500 exact phrasing parallels? If it's not likely as Ludwigm illustrated due to the nature of translation..then what do the parallels likely indicate? Or what is the best most probable explanation for the parallels? And the answer to that is..that the most likely probable explanation for the parallels indicate the Book of Mormon writer/writers used the King James Bible ..that they did not translate as Smith claimed from another source written in Reformed Egyptian and that the Book of Mormon author either copied from it directly or less likely from memory.

UNATRIBUTED Book of Mormon
BORROWINGS FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT
The majority of these parallelisms are not cross-referenced in any of the LDS Standard Works. In other words, a scripture in the Book of Mormon that closely parallels a New Testament scripture is not cross-referenced to the New Testament scripture. Mormons pride themselves in searching the scriptures and cross-referencing similarities between verses in one book of scripture that parallel verses in other books of scripture. It feels, however, like the church authorities don’t want to point out too many similarities, although they cross-reference some of the most obvious examples.

The examples I chose to include in this posting were long enough that perhaps some sequencing can be demonstrated, if sequencing is can defined as two or more elements in a sentence or paragraph in the Book of Mormon shown to be in the same order as in a sentence or paragraph in the corresponding New Testament scripture. The equation I would use for each set of parallelisms would be something like A + B + C, etc. = A + B + C, etc.

But here is the difficult part:

The range of elements include as few as two to more than 12. Can we arrive at what would be the fair number to include in a set to demonstrate a connection? If more than 12 is the answer, we have only a few; if two or more is the answer, we over 500 parallelisms in total.

1. 1 Nephi 1:14: “Great and marvelous are thy works, O Lord God Almighty”; “Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty”: Revelation 15:3.

2. 1 Nephi 2:18: “being grieved because of the hardness of their hearts”; “being grieved for the hardness of their hearts”: Mark 3:5.

3. 1 Nephi 2:24: “to stir them up in the ways of remembrance”; “to stir you up by putting you in remembrance” 2 Peter 1:13.

4. 1 Nephi 3:20: “spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets… since the world began”; “spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began”: Acts 3:21.

5. 1 Nephi 5:8: “Now I know of a surety that the Lord hath…delivered them out of the hands of Laban”; “Now I know of a surety, that the LORD hath…delivered me out of the hand of Herod”: Acts 12:11.

6. 1 Nephi 5:18: “all nations, kindreds, tongues and people”; “every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people”: Revelation 11:9.

7. 1 Nephi 10:8-10: “for there standeth one among you whom ye know not; and he is mightier than I, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. And much spake my father concerning this thing. And my father said he should baptize in Bethabara, beyond Jordan; and he also said he should baptize with water; even that he should baptize the Messiah with water. And after he had baptized the Messiah with water, he should behold and bear record that he had baptized the Lamb of God, who should take away the sins of the world”; “but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; he it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world”: John 1:26-27.

8. 1 Nephi 11:22: “the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men”; “the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts”: Romans 5:5.

9. 1 Nephi 12:4: “lightnings, and I heard thundering, and earthquakes”; “thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake”: Rev. 8:5.

10. 1 Nephi 12:4: “the earth and the rocks, that they rent”; “the earth did quake, and the rocks rent”: Matt.27:51.

11. 1 Nephi 12:11:: “made white in the blood of the Lamb”; “made them white in the blood of the Lamb”: Rev. 7:14.

12. 1 Nephi 13:7: “gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manners of precious clothing”; gold, and silver,… and fine linen,…and silk, and scarlet…and all manner vessels of most precious wood”: Rev. 18:12.

13. 1 Nephi 13:27: “pervert the right ways of the Lord”; “pervert the right ways of the Lord”: Acts 13:10.

14. 1 Nephi 14:11: “the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people”; “the great whore that sitteth upon many waters . … The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations and tongues”: Revelation 17:1, 15.

15. 1 Nephi 15:11: “ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive”; “whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive”: Matt. 21:22.

16. 1 Nephi 22:5: “shall be hated of all men”; “shall be hated of all men”: Matt. 10:22.

17. 1 Nephi 22:9: “In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed”; “And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed”: Acts 3: 25.

18. 1 Nephi 22:17: “they shall be saved, even if it so be as by fire”; “he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire”: 1 Corinthians 3:15.

19. 1 Nephi 22:18: “blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke”; “blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke”: Acts 2:19.

20. 1 Nephi 22:20: “A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that all those who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people”; “A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people”: Acts 3:22-23.

21. 1 Nephi 22:25: “and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”; “and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd”: John 10:16.

22. 2 Nephi 2:14: “God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are”; “God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is”: Acts 4:24.

23. 2 Nephi 2:18: “the devil, who is the father of all lies”; “the devil ... he is a liar, and the father of it”: John 8:44.

24. 2 Nephi 2:18: “that old serpent, who is the devil”; “that old serpent, called the Devil”: Rev. 12:9.

25. 2 Nephi 9:6: “death hath passed upon all men”; “death passed upon all men”: Romans 5:12.

26. 2 Nephi 9:7: “this corruption could not put on incorruption”; “this corruptible must put on incorruption”: 1 Corinthians 15:53.

27. 2 Nephi 9:9: “ who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light”; “for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light”: 2 Cor. 11:14.

28. 2 Nephi 9:12: “death and hell must deliver up their dead”; “death and hell delivered up the dead”: Revelation 20:13.

29. 2 Nephi 9:15: “all men shall have passed from this first death unto life”; “passed from death unto life”: John 5:24.

30. 2 Nephi 9:15: “must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel”; “we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ”: 2 Corinthians 5:10.

31. 2 Nephi 9:16: “the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them”; “into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels”: Matt. 25:41.

32. 2 Nephi 9:16: “their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end”; “he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever”: Rev. 14:10-11.

33. 2 Nephi 9:16: “they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still”; “he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still”: Revelation 22:11.

34. 2 Nephi 9:18: “they shall inherit the kingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world, and their joy shall be full forever”; “inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world …that your joy might be full”: Matt. 25:34.

35. 2 Nephi 9:18: “endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame”; “endured the cross, despising the shame”: Hebrews 12:2.

36. 2 Nephi 9:30: “But wo unto the rich”; “But woe unto you that are rich!”: Luke 6:24.

37. 2 Nephi 9:30: “they despise the poor”; “ye have despised the poor”: James 2:6.

38. 2 Nephi 9:33: “uncircumcised of heart”; “uncircumcised in heart”: Acts 7:51.

39. 2 Nephi 9:34: “shall be thrust down to hell”; “shalt be thrust down to hell”: Luke 10:15.

40. 2 Nephi 9:38: “die in their sins” “die in your sins”: John 8:21.

41. 2 Nephi 9:42: “whoso knocketh, to him will he open”; “to him that knocketh it shall be opened”: Matthew 7:8.

42. 2 Nephi 9:43: “the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever”; “thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent”: Matt. 11:25.

43. 2 Nephi 9:46: “Holy, holy … Lord God Almighty”; “holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty”: Rev. 4:8.

44. 2 Nephi 10:4: “For should the mighty miracles be wrought among other nations they would repent”; “for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago”: Matt. 11:21.

45. 2 Nephi 10:16: “ Jew and Gentile … bond and free, both male and female”; “neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female”: Galatians 3:28.

46. 2 Nephi 10:22: “according to his will and pleasure”; “according to the good pleasure of his will”: Ephesians 1:5.

47. 2 Nephi 25:29: “shall in nowise be cast out; [“no wise”in 1830, even though “nowise” has been around since the 14th centure]; “I will in no wise cast out”: John 6:37.

48. 2 Nephi 26:5: “grind them to powder”; “ grind him to powder”: Matt. 21:44.

49. 2 Nephi 26:30: “except they should have charity they were nothing”; “and have not charity, I am nothing”: 1 Corinthians 13:2.

50. 2 Nephi 28:7: “Eat, drink, and be merry”; “eat, drink, and be merry”: Luke 12:19.

51. 2 Nephi 28:8: “will beat us with a few stripes”; “But he “shall be beaten with few stripes”: Luke 12:48.

52. 2 Nephi 28:11: “they have all gone out of the way; they have all become corrupted”; “They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable” : Rom. 3:12.

53. 2 Nephi 28:15: “they shall be thrust down to hell!”; “And thou…shalt be thrust down to hell”: Luke 10:15.

54. 2 Nephi 28:18: “and great must be the fall thereof”; “and great was the fall of it”: Matt. 7:27.

55. 2 Nephi 28:19: “everlasting chains”; “everlasting chains”: Jude 1:6.

56. 2 Nephi 28:23: “lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment”; “lake of fire and brimstone…tormented day and night for ever and ever”: Revelation 20:10.

57. 2 Nephi 28:28: “built upon the rock”; “built his house upon a rock”: Matt. 7:24.

58. 2 Nephi 28:28: “built upon a sandy foundation” ; “built his house upon the sand”: Matt. 7:24.

59. 2 Nephi 29:11: “out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works”; “the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works”: Revelation 20:12. [could be buried]

60. 2 Nephi 30:6: “their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes”; “there fell from his eyes as it had been scales”: Acts 9:18.

61. 2 Nephi 31:10: “Follow thou me”; “follow thou me”: John 21:22.

62. 2 Nephi 31:11: “repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son”; “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ”: Acts 2:38.

63. 2 Nephi 31:13: “speak with the tongue of angels”; “speak with the tongues of men and of angels”: 1 Corinthians 13:1.

64. 2 Nephi 31:14: “speak with a new tongue”; “speak with new tongues”: Mark 16:17.

65. 2 Nephi 31:15: “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved”; “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved”: Matt. 24:13.

66. 2 Nephi 31:18: “strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life”; “strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life”: Matthew 7:14.

67. 2 Nephi 31:19-20: “with unshaken faith ... a steadfastness in Christ”; “the stedfastness of your faith in Christ”: Col. 2:5

68. 2 Nephi 31:21 “there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved”; “there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”: Acts 4:12.

69. 2 Nephi 32:2: “speak with the tongue of angels”; “speak with the tongues of men and of angels”: 1 Corinthians 13:1.

70. 2 Nephi 32:9: “pray always, and not faint”; “always to pray, and not to faint”: Luke 18:1.

71. Jacob 2:19: “hope in Christ”; “hope in Christ”: 1 Cor. 15:19.

72. Jacob 6:8: “quench the Holy Spirit; Quench not the Spirit”: 1 Thess 5:19.

73. Jacob 5:4: “hewn down and cast into the fire”; “ hewn down, and cast into the fire”: Matt. 7:19.

74. Jacob 6:5: “with full purpose of heart, and cleave unto God”; “with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord”: Acts 11:23.

75. Jacob 5:47: “I have digged about it… and I have dunged it”; “I shall dig about it, and dung it”: Luke 13:8.

76. Jacob 5:49: “they shall not cumber the ground”; “why cumbereth it the ground”: Luke 13:7

77. Jacob 6:4: “he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiffnecked and a gainsaying people”; “All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people”: Romans 10:21.

78. Jacob 6:6: “today, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts”; “To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts”: Hebrews 3:7-8.

79. Jacob 7:14:: “he has power, both in heaven and in earth”; “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth”: Matt. 28:18.

80. Enos 1:20: “a short skin girdle about their loins”; “a girdle of a skin about his loins”: Mark 1:4.

81. Enos 1:23: “Great plainness of speech”; “great plainness of speech”: 2 Cor. 3:12.

82. Enos 1:26: “the truth which is in Christ; “the truth in Christ”: Rom. 9:1.

83. Enos 1:27: “Come unto me, ye blessed…of my Father”; “Come, ye blessed of my Father”: Matthew 25:34.

84. Jarom 1:4: “communion with the Holy Spirit”; “communion of the Holy Ghost”: 2 Cor. 13:4.

85. Jarom 1:11: “exhorting with all long-suffering”; “exhort with all longsuffering”: 2 Tim. 4:2.

86. Mosiah 1:8: “which are not written in this book”; “which are not written in this book”: John 20:30.

87. Mosiah 1:13: “a wicked and an adulterous people”; “A wicked and adulterous generation”: Matt. 16:4.

88. Mosiah 2:21: “preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move”; “he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things ... For in him we live, and move”: Acts 17:25, 28.

89. Mosiah 2:33: “everlasting punishment”; “everlasting punishment”: Matt. 25:46.

90. Mosiah 2:34: “spoken by the holy prophets”; “spoken before by the holy prophets”: 2 Peter 3:2.

91. Mosiah 2:38: “unquenchable fire”; “unquenchable fire” : Matt. 3:12.

92. Mosiah 3:5: “the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth”; “the Lord God omnipotent reigneth”: Revelation 19:6.

93. Mosiah 3:9: “and say that he hath a devil”; “they say, He hath a devil”: Matt. 11:18.

94. Mosiah 3:13: “rejoice with exceedingly great joy”; “rejoice with exceeding great joy”: Matt. 2:10.

95. Mosiah 3:18: “he judgeth, and his judgment is just”; “I judge: and my judgment is just”: John 5:30.

96. Mosiah 3:17: “there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come”; “for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”: Acts 4:12.

97. Mosiah 3:26: “drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God”; “drink of the wine of the wrath of God”: Rev. 14:10.

98. Mosiah 4:6: “continue in the faith”; “continue in the faith”: Acts 14:22.

99. Mosiah 4:6: “prepared from the foundation of the world”; “prepared for you from the foundation of the world”: Matt. 25:34.

100. Mosiah 4:11: “the knowledge of the glory of God”; “the knowledge of the glory of God”: 2 Cor. 4:6.

101. Mosiah 4:18: “O man, whosoever”; “O man, whosoever”: Rom. 2:1.

102. Mosiah 4:27: “see that all these things are done in … order”; “Lall things be done … in order” 1 Cor. 14:40

103. Mosiah 5:13: “thoughts and intents of his heart”; “the thoughts and intents of the heart”; Hebrews 4:12.

104. Mosiah 5:15: “who is God above all”; God …who is above all”: Eph. 4:6.

105. Mosiah 8:17: “hidden things shall come to light”; “will bring to light the hidden things: 1 Cor. 4:5.

106. Mosiah 10:8: “a leathern girdle about their loins”; “a leathern girdle about his loins”: Matthew 3:4.

107. Mosiah 14:12: “he bore the sins of many”; “to bear the sins of many”: Heb. 9:28.
108.
109. Mosiah 16:2: “the wicked be cast out…and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth”; “cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth”: Matthew 22:13.

110. Mosiah 16:3: “that old serpent”; “that old serpent”: Revelation 20:2.

111. Mosiah 16:3: “carnal, sensual, devilish”; “earthly, sensual, devilish”: James 3:15.

112. Mosiah 16:7: “death should have no sting”; “death, where is thy sting” 1 Cor. 15:55.

113. Mosiah 16:10 “this mortal shall put on immortality”; “this mortal shall have put on immortality”: 1 Cor. 15:54.

114. Mosiah 16:11: “endless life”; “endless life”: Heb. 7:16.

115. Mosiah 18:21: “one faith and one baptism”; “one faith, one baptism”: Ephesians 4:5.

116. Mosiah 18:21: “their hearts knit together in unity and in love”; “their hearts … knit together in love”: Colossians 2:2.

117. Mosiah 20:17: “lay not this thing to their charge”; “lay not this sin to their charge”: Acts 7:60.

118. Mosiah 21:13: “the yoke of bondage”; “the yoke of bondage”: Galatians 5:1.
119. Mosiah 23:13: “stand fast in this liberty wherewith ye have been made free”; “Stand fast thereof in that liberty wherein Christ has made us free”: Galatians 5:1.

120. Mosiah 21:17: “perish with hunger”; “perish with hunger”: Luke 15:17.

121. Mosiah 22:4: “unprofitable servant”; “unprofitable servant”: Matt. 25:30.

122. Mosiah 24:13: “be of good comfort”; “be of good comfort”: Matt. 9:22.

123. Mosiah 26:27: “depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels”; “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels”: Matthew 25:41.

124. Mosiah 26:37: “walking circumspectly”; “walk circumspectly”: Ephesians 5:15.

125. Mosiah 26:39: “pray without ceasing, and to give thanks in all things”; “Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks”: 1 Thessalonians 5:17-18.

126. Mosiah 27:26: “thus they become new creatures” and 3 Nephi 12:47: “Old things are done away, and all things have become new; “he is a new creature: old things are passed away; all things have become new: 2 Cor. 5:17.

127. Mosiah 27:24-25 “behold I am born of the Spirit. … Marvel not that all mankind ... must be born again”; “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. ... so is every one that is born of the Spirit”: John 3:6-8

128. Mosiah 27:29: “gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity”; “the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity”: Acts 8:22-23.

129. Mosiah 27:3: “that there should be an equality”; “that there may be equality”: 2 Cor. 8:14.

130. Mosiah 27:29: “the gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity”; “ the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity”: Acts 8:23.

131. Mosiah 27:31 “every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him; “every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God”: Rom. 14:11-12.

132. Alma 1:25: “stand fast in the faith”; “stand fast in the faith”: 1 Corinthians 16:13.

133. Alma 5:7: “everlasting destruction”; “everlasting destruction”: 2 Thess. 1:9.

134. Alma 5:48: “full of grace, and mercy, and truth”; “full of grace and truth”: John 1:14.

135. Alma 5:50: “his glory, in his might, majesty, power, and dominion”; “power, and might, and dominion”: Eph. 1:21.

136. Alma 5:52: “unquenchable fire”; “unquenchable fire”: Matt. 3:12.

137. Alma 5:57: “come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things”; “come out from among them, and be ye separate … and touch not the unclean thing”: 2 Cor 6:17.

138. Alma 9:8: “perverse generation”; “perverse generation”: Matt. 17:17.

139. Alma 9:21: “speaking with tongues”; “speaking with tongues”: 1 Cor. 14:6.

140. Alma 10:20: “for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”; “for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”: Matt. 3:2.

141. Alma 11:39: “the beginning and the end, the first and the last”; “the beginning and the end, the first and the last”: Rev. 22:13.

142. Alma 14:26: “faith which is in Christ”; “faith which is in Christ”: 2 Tim. 3:15.

143. Alma 15:14: “all the region round about …and were baptized”; “all the region round about … were baptized”: Maek 3:5-6.

144. Alma 18:13: “which is, being interpreted”; “which is, being interpreted”: John 1:41.

145. Alma 5:15: “corruption raised in incorruption” “corruption … raised in incorruption”: 1 Cor. 15:42.

146. Alma 5:34: “drink … the waters of life freely”; “let him take the water of life freely”: Rev. 22:17.

147. Alma 5:52 “the ax is laid at the root of the tree, therefore every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be hewn down and cast into the fire”; “the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire”: Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9.

148. Alma 5:24: “sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob”; “sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven”: Matthew 8:11.

149. Alma 5:50: “glory … majesty, power, and dominion”; “glory and majesty, dominion and power”: Jude 1:25.

150. Alma 5:37: “puffed up”; “puffed up”: 1 Cor. 4:6.

[_Roger]

marg:

You see Roger this is why when one allows the assumption of God in a discussion ..then there is no rhyme or reason necessary in the argument...they can have God do anything.

I stand corrected. The minute I read that I knew you were going to bust me.

That's why I thought we should agree on the characteristics of God, which is why I emphasized that God doesn't lie and God is omniscient. But you're correct. If Franktalk's version of God is accurate:

I would suspect that God would place all kinds of odd devices of language in scripture. As a net to trap those who think themselves cleaver.

Then all bets are off.

[_Res Ipsa]

So, out of the gate, we don't know what 500 parallels really means? If we find 500 between the Bible and The Stand, would we conclude that King copied from The Bible?

What is involved with Vessr's noted parallels is they are from a text known i.e. a King James version translated from original texts written in Hebrew and Greek...and this can be verified. And from another text which allegedly was (I believe) a translation from Hebrew into Reformed Egyptian (written before the King Jame version existed and then supposedly Smith in 1830 approx. translated into english from that reformed Egyptian.

It took 40 + translators to prepare the King James Version. If translation was a matter of yielding only one possible translation..then 40 + translators would not have been necessary.

Under this scenario the question to ask is ..is it likely that translations from Hebrew & Greek into english and Reformed Egyptian into english of the same text would result in over 500 exact phrasing parallels? If it's not likely as Ludwigm illustrated due to the nature of translation..then what do the parallels likely indicate? Or what is the best most probable explanation for the parallels? And the answer to that is..that the most likely probable explanation for the parallels indicate the Book of Mormon writer/writers used the King James Bible ..that they did not translate as Smith claimed from another source written in Reformed Egyptian and that the Book of Mormon author either copied from it directly or less likely from memory.

I don't disagree with Ludwig. However, suppose we compare with KJV with more modern translations of the Bible. How many exact parallels would we expect? I'm saying that I simply don't know. And I'm not willing to reach any conclusion based on data mining without a factual baseline on which to base my opinions.

[_Roger]

marg:

As far as your argument above..what are you trying to argue..that a God wasn't involved? That's your assumption which is based on your idea of a God and that it would create an error free text. But do you really think someone like Tobin is going to accept that argument?

Yes and no. First, it's not just my assumption it's what the early TBMs who were in the same room claim. I don't accept their testimony and neither do you, but TBMs do - or at least they should if they are going to be consistent. So, do I really think someone like Tobin is going to accept that argument? I think he should because that is exactly what early TBMs who were in the same room, saw with their own eyes, believed just like Tobin does and whose testimony he accepts under different conditions, say.

But, on the other hand, the answer is no, because doing so presents a problem when it comes to the errors in the 1830 text of the Book of Mormon. The fact that modern TBMs can't accept the testimony of early TBMs who were on location makes the case they are making extremely weak. It would be like me claiming Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were good guys but they didn't know what they were talking about.

[_Roger]

I think Ludwigm's addressed the O.P. The KGB is a translated Bible from other languages and other than being copied by Book of Mormon author/authors there is no justified reason that the Book of Mormon should contain many of the same phrases.

It may be that the only way we can sort through all this is from a philosophical rather than an empirical perspective. From that point of view, I completely agree with you. Brad wants a means of establishing a baseline that gives us something to measure by, but I think that might be impossible.

He writes:

But that's really not a fair test of Smith and the Book of Mormon because Smith had some familiarity with the Bible and was trying to write in the voice of the Bible. So, if we really wanted to figure out how many parallels we'd expect to find, we'd need to take a bunch of people who were familiar with the Bible and ask them to write a book of comparable length to the Book of Mormon that told the story of peoples in the Americas and a visit to them by the resurrected Jesus. Something like that. Then, we could count the parallels between each of these books and the Bible to get a baseline for what we should expect to find in the way of parallels. Without this kind of exercise, we don't have any sort of baseline to compare vessr's parallels to and so we actually don't know whether they mean anything at all.

This sounds great, but the problem is the selection of people is going to be subjective. The only way to get around that is to expand the pool and then the question of how many is required becomes an issue. And on a practical level, how many people are going to want to write a book in the style and length of the Book of Mormon just for comparison purposes? Not many. Probably not any. So if that's what is required to produce a reasonable baseline, then I think it's hopeless.

I can speak as someone who is familiar with the Bible. If I were to write a book that was attempting to sound like the Bible, there would surely be some hits. I have some scriptures memorized, so there is no doubt some of that would come out if my purpose was to make the book sound like scripture. So the question becomes one of how many direct hits are required before we conclude that I wasn't just doing it from my familiarity with the Bible, but instead I was actually directly copying from the Bible. That's a very fine line. The answer is subjective, but I would suggest that when we discover a large number of direct or very near hits, then chances are greater that direct copying is occurring. Either way, however, we are acknowledging dependence. We're just distinguishing between direct and indirect.

In his own way, even Tobin is acknowledging the dependence. He's saying that God doesn't "speak differently." Well that is essentially an admission that the parallels are too close to attribute them to chance.

[_Tobin]

marg is correct. I don't give all accounts about the translation of the Book of Mormon the same weight and I don't think it is reasonable to do so. I don't think one can blindly accept claims or accounts just because someone was there or not. You need to also consider what information the source could possibly have and whether or not their perceptions could be correct. I apply this same standard to many accounts in Mormon history and the scriptures themselves.

Just so I'm being clear. I think only comments from Joseph Smith (or Joseph Smith speaking for the Lord or pretending to, as the critics charge) are relevant. However, I do also discount what Joseph Smith says because he may not have known how things worked exactly and was learning as he went along as well. I don't think an uncritical and thoughtless acceptance of what someone says is ever a good idea and I reject such notions.

[_Roger]

Brad wrote:

...suppose we compare with KJV with more modern translations of the Bible. How many exact parallels would we expect?

Actually I think you could reasonably expect a small percentage of exact parallels simply because language has evolved. So every time the modern version has "you" instead of "thou" that's a variance. So, for example, if we compare the GNB with the 1611 KJV, I would expect a low percentage of direct hits and I would expect that percentage would be even less when comparing long sentences. For shorter sentences, like "Jesus wept." We might expect a direct hit, but for longer sentences, the chances of a variance are greater.

So for example:

1966 GNB
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/gnt/john/3-16.html

1611 King James
For God so loued þe world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_John-3-16/

Although one can see the resemblance, there is also quite a variance.