LittleNipper wrote:[#quote="LittleNipper"]The unsaved made gods of mere mortal men, among whom was Nimrod. I certainly do not worship either Mary or Abraham. And you do rightly state that all false religion is the result of focusing on mortal man as being worthy of worship. There is but one GOD: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ------ ONE GOD.[#/quote]
Q.E.D. quote]To demonstrated I provide the example of Nimrod. And also early on in the Bible we have mention of Nephilim. Today may worship sports figures, actors and musicians ---- not so very different from the past. Many will spend hundreds to see a concert or a fight and yet balk at putting a dollar in the offering plate. I would say legends are thing false "gods" are made of.
Please leave out Nimrod or nephilim.
Really? REALLY? Don't You read anything than Bible?
What about Allah, Zeus, Jupiter, Huitzilopochtli... They are/were not mortal men, not sports figures, actors and musicians. They were deities. Same type as Your Yhwh/Yahveh/Jehovah, the primitive tribal god four thousand years ago.
Please don't sidestep again!
What makes Jehovah better --- or at least more believable --- than Allah, Zeus, Jupiter, Huitzilopochtli? Why are they false gods, and why isn't Your pet one?
There was a day when Jupiter was the king of all the gods, and any man who doubted his puissance was ipso facto a barbarian and an ignoramus. But where in all the world is there a man who worships Jupiter today? And what of Huitzilopochtli? In one year — and it was but five hundred years ago — no less than 50,000 youths and maidens were slain in sacrifice to him. Today, if he is remembered at all, it is only by some vagrant savage in the depths of the Mexican forest. Huitzilopochtli, like many other gods, had no human father; his mother was a virtuous widow; he was born of an apparently innocent flirtation that she carried on with the sun. When he frowned, his father, the sun, stood still. When he roared with rage, earthquakes engulfed whole cities. When he thirsted, he was watered with 10,000 gallons of human blood.
... not a musician, ehm ...
Read about Zeus, etc., and you will find nothing but stories of flawed men and their "dysfunctional families" much less creators of the universe...
1 Chronicles 9:1-44 Israel was listed in the genealogies recorded in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah And taken captive to Babylon being unfaithful.
The first to resettle on their own property in their own towns were some Israelites, priests, Levites and temple servants.Those from Judah, from Benjamin, and from Ephraim and Manasseh who lived in Jerusalem were: Uthai son of Ammihud, the son of Omri, the son of Imri, the son of Bani, a descendant of Perez son of Judah.
Of the Shelanites: Asaiah the firstborn and his sons.
Of the Zerahites: Jeuel. These people from Judah numbered 690.
Of the Benjamites: Sallu son of Meshullam, the son of Hodaviah, the son of Hassenuah;
Ibneiah son of Jeroham; Elah son of Uzzi, the son of Mikri; and Meshullam son of Shephatiah, the son of Reuel, the son of Ibnijah. The people from Benjamin, as listed in their genealogy, numbered 956. All these men were heads of their families.
Of the priests: Jedaiah; Jehoiarib; Jakin; Azariah son of Hilkiah, the son of Meshullam, the son of Zadok, the son of Meraioth, the son of Ahitub, the official in charge of the temple; Adaiah son of Jeroham, the son of Pashhur, the son of Malkijah; and Maasai son of Adiel, the son of Jahzerah, the son of Meshullam, the son of Meshillemith, the son of Immer. The priests, who were heads of families, numbered 1,760. They were able men, responsible for ministering.
Of the Levites: Shemaiah son of Hasshub, the son of Azrikam, the son of Hashabiah, a Merarite; Bakbakkar, Heresh, Galal and Mattaniah son of Mika, the son of Zikri, the son of Asaph; Obadiah son of Shemaiah, the son of Galal, the son of Jeduthun; and Berekiah son of Asa, the son of Elkanah, who lived in the villages of the Netophathites.
The gatekeepers: Shallum, Akkub, Talmon, Ahiman and their fellow Levites, Shallum their chief positioned at the King’s Gate on the east, up to the time of this record. These were the gatekeepers belonging to the camp of the Levites. Shallum son of Kore, the son of Ebiasaph, the son of Korah, and his fellow gatekeepers from his family (the Korahites) responsible for guarding the thresholds as their ancestors.
In earlier times Phinehas son of Eleazar was the official in charge of the gatekeepers, and the Lord was with him. Zechariah son of Meshelemiah was the gatekeeper at the entrance to the tent of meeting. Altogether, those chosen to be gatekeepers at the thresholds numbered 212. They were registered by genealogy in their villages. The gatekeepers had been assigned to their positions of trust by David and Samuel the seer. The gatekeepers were on the four sides: east, west, north and south. Their fellow Levites in their villages had to come from time to time and share their duties for 7 day periods. The four principal gatekeepers, who were Levites, were entrusted with the responsibility for the rooms and treasuries in temple. They would spend the night stationed around the house of God, because they had to guard it; and they had charge of the key for opening it each morning.
Some of them were in charge of the articles used in the temple service; they counted them when they were brought in and when they were taken out. Others were assigned to take care of the furnishings and all the other articles of the sanctuary, as well as the special flour and wine, and the olive oil, incense and spices. But some of the priests took care of mixing the spices. A Levite named Mattithiah, the firstborn son of Shallum the Korahite, was entrusted with the responsibility for baking the offering bread. Some of the Kohathites, their fellow Levites, were in charge of preparing for every Sabbath the bread set out on the table.
Those who were musicians, heads of Levite families, stayed in the rooms of the temple and were exempt from other duties because they were responsible for the work day and night.
All these were heads of Levite families, chiefs as listed in their genealogy, and they lived in Jerusalem.
The Genealogy of Saul Jeiel the father of Gibeon lived in Gibeon. His wife’s name was Maakah, and his firstborn son was Abdon, followed by Zur, Kish, Baal, Ner, Nadab, Gedor, Ahio, Zechariah and Mikloth. Mikloth was the father of Shimeam. They too lived near their relatives in Jerusalem. Ner was the father of Kish, Kish the father of Saul, and Saul the father of Jonathan, Malki-Shua, Abinadab and Esh-Baal. The son of Jonathan: Merib-Baal, who was the father of Micah.
The sons of Micah: Pithon, Melek, Tahrea and Ahaz. Ahaz was the father of Jadah, Jadah was the father of Alemeth, Azmaveth and Zimri, and Zimri was the father of Moza. Moza was the father of Binea; Rephaiah was his son, Eleasah his son and Azel his son.
Azel had 6 sons, named: Azrikam, Bokeru, Ishmael, Sheariah, Obadiah and Hanan.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And all Israel have reckoned themselves by genealogy, and lo, they are written on the book of the kings of Israel and Judah -- they were removed to Babylon for their trespass.
2 And the first inhabitants, who [are] in their possession, in their cities, of Israel, [are] the priests, the Levites, and the Nethinim.
3 And in Jerusalem dwelt of the sons of Judah, and of the sons of Benjamin, and of the sons of Ephraim and Manasseh:
4 Uthai son of Ammihud, son of Omri, son of Imri, son of Bani, of the sons of Pharez, son of Judah.
5 And of the Shilonite: Asaiah the first-born, and his sons.
6 And of the sons of Zerah: Jeuel, and their brethren, six hundred and ninety.
7 And of the sons of Benjamin: Sallu son of Meshullam, son of Hodaviah, son of Hassenuah,
8 and Ibneiah son of Jeroham, and Elah son of Uzzi, son of Michri, and Meshullam son of Shephatiah, son of Reuel, son of Ibnijah.
9 And their brethren, according to their generations, [are] nine hundred and fifty and six. All these [are] men, heads of fathers, according to the house of their fathers.
10 And of the priests: Jedaiah, and Jehoiarib, and Jachin,
11 and Azariah son of Hilkiah, son of Meshullam, son of Zadok, son of Meraioth, son of Ahitub, leader in the house of God;
12 and Adaiah son of Jeroham, son of Pashhur, son of Malchijah, and Maasai son of Adiel, son of Jahzerah, son of Meshullam, son of Meshillemith, son of Immer.
13 And their brethren, heads to the house of their fathers, a thousand and seven hundred and sixty, mighty in valour, [are] for the work of the service of the house of God.
14 And of the Levites: Shemaiah son of Hashshub, son of Azrikam, son of Hashabiah, of the sons of Merari;
15 and Bakbakkar, Heresh, and Galal, and Mattaniah son of Micah, son of Zichri, son of Asaph;
16 and Obadiah son of Shemariah, son of Galal, son of Jeduthun, and Berechiah, son of Asa, son of Elkanah, who is dwelling in the villages of the Netophathite.
17 And the gatekeepers [are] Shallum, and Akkub, and Talmon, and Ahiman, and their brethren -- Shallum [is] the head;
18 and hitherto they [are] at the gate of the king eastward; they [are] the gatekeepers for the companies of the sons of Levi.
19 And Shallum son of Kore, son of Ebiasaph, son of Korah, and his brethren, of the house of his father, the Korahites, [are] over the work of the service, keepers of the thresholds of the tent, and their fathers [are] over the camp of Jehovah, keepers of the entrance;
20 and Phinehas son of Eleazar hath been leader over them formerly; Jehovah [is] with him.
21 Zechariah son of Meshelemiah [is] gatekeeper at the opening of the tent of meeting.
22 All of those who are chosen for gatekeepers at the thresholds [are] two hundred and twelve; they [are] in their villages, by their genealogy; they whom David and Samuel the seer appointed in their office.
23 And they and their sons [are] over the gates of the house of Jehovah, even of the house of the tent, by watches.
24 At four sides are the gatekeepers, east, west, north, and south.
25 And their brethren in their villages [are] to come in for seven days from time to time with these.
26 For in office [are] the four chiefs of the gatekeepers, they are Levites, and they have been over the chambers, and over the treasuries of the house of God,
27 and round about the house of God they lodge, for on them [is] the watch, and they [are] over the opening, even morning by morning.
28 And [some] of them [are] over the vessels of service, for by number they bring them in, and by number they take them out.
29 And [some] of them are appointed over the vessels, even over all the vessels of the sanctuary, and over the fine flour, and the wine, and the oil, and the frankincense, and the spices.
30 And [some] of the sons of the priests are mixing the mixture for spices.
31 And Mattithiah, of the Levites (he [is] the first-born to Shallum the Korahite), [is] in office over the work of the pans.
32 And of the sons of the Kohathite, [some] of their brethren [are] over the bread of the arrangement, to prepare [it] sabbath by sabbath.
33 And these who sing, heads of fathers of the Levites, in the chambers, [are] free, for by day and by night [they are] over them in the work.
34 These heads of the fathers of the Levites throughout their generations [are] heads. These have dwelt in Jerusalem.
35 And in Gibeon dwelt hath the father of Gibeon, Jehiel, and the name of his wife [is] Maachah;
36 and his son, the first-born, [is] Abdon, and Zur, and Kish, and Baal, and Ner, and Nadab,
37 and Gedor, and Ahio, and Zechariah, and Mikloth.
38 And Mikloth begat Shimeam, and they also, over-against their brethren, have dwelt in Jerusalem with their brethren.
39 And Ner begat Kish, and Kish begat Saul, and Saul begat Jonathan, and Malchi-Shua, and Abinadab, and Esh-Baal.
40 And a son of Jonathan [is] Merib-Baal, and Merib-Baal begat Micah.
41 And sons of Micah: Pithon, and Melech, and Tahrea,
42 and Ahaz -- he begat Jaarah, and Jaarah begat Alemeth, and Azmaveth, and Zimri, and Zimri begat Moza,
43 and Moza begat Binea, and Rephaiah [is] his son. Eleasah his son, Azel his son.
44 And to Azel [are] six sons, and these their names: Azrikam, Bocheru, and Ishmael, and Sheariah, and Obadiah, and Hanan: these [are] sons of Azel.
What makes Jehovah better --- or at least more believable --- than Allah, Zeus, Jupiter, Huitzilopochtli? Why are they false gods, and why isn't Your pet one?
Read about Zeus, etc., and you will find nothing but stories of flawed men and their "dysfunctional families" much less creators of the universe...
Read about Jehovah, and you will find another bunch of stories of flawed men and their dysfunctional families.
Huitzilopochtli was the smallest son of four—his parents being the creator couple Tonacateuctli and Tonacacihuatl while his brothers were Quetzalcoatl and the two Tezcatlipocas. His mother and father instructed both him and Quetzalcoatl to bring order to the world. And so, together they made fire, the first male and female humans, created the Earth, and manufactured a sun.
Why is he a false god, and why not Jehovah?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
LittleNipper wrote:Read about Zeus, etc., and you will find nothing but stories of flawed men and their "dysfunctional families" much less creators of the universe...
Read about Jehovah, and you will find another bunch of stories of flawed men and their dysfunctional families.
Huitzilopochtli was the smallest son of four—his parents being the creator couple Tonacateuctli and Tonacacihuatl while his brothers were Quetzalcoatl and the two Tezcatlipocas. His mother and father instructed both him and Quetzalcoatl to bring order to the world. And so, together they made fire, the first male and female humans, created the Earth, and manufactured a sun.
Why is he a false god, and why not Jehovah?
What is being shown and demonstrated in the Bible, is that man is inferior in his ability to be good. Man cannot save himself. Man will do the same mistakes over and over. Only God is good. God makes no mistakes. God expresses Himself in human terms so that we might understand. God became man so that we might witness God's ability to understand what trials we humans face, be saved through faith in His ultimate sacrifice, and have hope of eternal life upon that of His own resurrection. God is not a super human despot. God is just.
LittleNipper wrote:What is being shown and demonstrated in the Bible, is that man is inferior in his ability to be good. Man cannot save himself. Man will do the same mistakes over and over. Only God is good. God makes no mistakes. God expresses Himself in human terms so that we might understand. God became man so that we might witness God's ability to understand what trials we humans face, be saved through faith in His ultimate sacrifice, and have hope of eternal life upon that of His own resurrection. God is not a super human despot. God is just.
Which God? Your one?
What about Allah? Allah is the proper name of God, and humble submission to his will, divine ordinances and commandments is the pivot of the Muslim faith. "He is the only God, creator of the universe, and the judge of humankind." "He is unique (wāḥid) and inherently one (aḥad), all-merciful and omnipotent." The Qur'an declares "the reality of Allah, His inaccessible mystery, His various names, and His actions on behalf of His creatures." In Islamic tradition, there are 99 Names of God (al-asmā’ al-ḥusná lit. meaning: 'the best names' or 'the most beautiful names'), each of which evoke a distinct characteristic of Allah. All these names refer to Allah, the supreme and all-comprehensive divine name. Among the 99 names of God, the most famous and most frequent of these names are "the Merciful" (al-Raḥmān) and "the Compassionate" (al-Raḥīm).
Please don't sidestep again and again!
What makes Jehovah better --- or at least more believable --- than Allah, Zeus, Jupiter, Huitzilopochtli and hundreds or thousands others? Why are they false gods, and why isn't Your pet one?
Why did You choose this one god, and not another? There is a big assortment. Or You are the same as other milliards: was born into a christian family, a christian environment, then even can not imagine any other...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
LittleNipper wrote:What is being shown and demonstrated in the Bible, is that man is inferior in his ability to be good. Man cannot save himself. Man will do the same mistakes over and over. Only God is good. God makes no mistakes. God expresses Himself in human terms so that we might understand. God became man so that we might witness God's ability to understand what trials we humans face, be saved through faith in His ultimate sacrifice, and have hope of eternal life upon that of His own resurrection. God is not a super human despot. God is just.
Which God? Your one?
What about Allah? Allah is the proper name of God, and humble submission to his will, divine ordinances and commandments is the pivot of the Muslim faith. "He is the only God, creator of the universe, and the judge of humankind." "He is unique (wāḥid) and inherently one (aḥad), all-merciful and omnipotent." The Qur'an declares "the reality of Allah, His inaccessible mystery, His various names, and His actions on behalf of His creatures." In Islamic tradition, there are 99 Names of God (al-asmā’ al-ḥusná lit. meaning: 'the best names' or 'the most beautiful names'), each of which evoke a distinct characteristic of Allah. All these names refer to Allah, the supreme and all-comprehensive divine name. Among the 99 names of God, the most famous and most frequent of these names are "the Merciful" (al-Raḥmān) and "the Compassionate" (al-Raḥīm).
Please don't sidestep again and again!
What makes Jehovah better --- or at least more believable --- than Allah, Zeus, Jupiter, Huitzilopochtli and hundreds or thousands others? Why are they false gods, and why isn't Your pet one?
Why did You choose this one god, and not another? There is a big assortment. Or You are the same as other milliards: was born into a christian family, a christian environment, then even can not imagine any other...
By their works are believers KNOWN. Notice there is no mention of salvation. What were the works of the Pagan's, and the Moslems, and the Hindi. Is it they who ended slavery? Is it they who questioned war? Was it through them that class distinctions fell into disrepute? Is it by them orphanages, hospitals, and schools for the poorer were established? Things have not happened overnight, but in small steps Christianity has been the influence. The pagans gave Christian icons and statues among other things.
LittleNipper wrote:By their works are believers KNOWN. Notice there is no mention of salvation. What were the works of the Pagan's, and the Moslems, and the Hindi. Is it they who ended slavery? Is it they who questioned war? Was it through them that class distinctions fell into disrepute? Is it by them orphanages, hospitals, and schools for the poorer were established? Things have not happened overnight, but in small steps Christianity has been the influence. The pagans gave Christian icons and statues among other things.
Is this the answer?
by the way By their works are believers KNOWN. Christians: Is it they who burned others for believing differently? (inquisition, if You know the word and the idea...) Is it they who blessed the weapons? (and no, they didn't questioned war, they generated it...)
My question is unchanged.
ludwigm wrote:What makes Jehovah better --- or at least more believable --- than Allah, Zeus, Jupiter, Huitzilopochtli and hundreds or thousands others? Why are they false gods, and why isn't Your pet one?
Why did You choose this one god, and not another? There is a big assortment. Or You are the same as other milliards: was born into a christian family, a christian environment, then even can not imagine any other...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
LittleNipper wrote:By their works are believers KNOWN. Notice there is no mention of salvation. What were the works of the Pagan's, and the Moslems, and the Hindi. Is it they who ended slavery? Is it they who questioned war? Was it through them that class distinctions fell into disrepute? Is it by them orphanages, hospitals, and schools for the poorer were established? Things have not happened overnight, but in small steps Christianity has been the influence. The pagans gave Christian icons and statues among other things.
Is this the answer?
by the way By their works are believers KNOWN. Christians: Is it they who burned others for believing differently? (inquisition, if You know the word and the idea...) Is it they who blessed the weapons? (and no, they didn't questioned war, they generated it...)
My question is unchanged.
ludwigm wrote:What makes Jehovah better --- or at least more believable --- than Allah, Zeus, Jupiter, Huitzilopochtli and hundreds or thousands others? Why are they false gods, and why isn't Your pet one?
Why did You choose this one god, and not another? There is a big assortment. Or You are the same as other milliards: was born into a christian family, a christian environment, then even can not imagine any other...
Well, not to hurt your feelings; however, the Roman Catholic church established the inquisition and the Jesuits. The Roman Catholic church came to be as a result of Christianity becoming "popularized" ---- the result of Roman Emperors making it the "state" religion. There was an influx of people coming into the church who were pagans and simply saw religion as a civic duty. They influenced the church to become "PAGONIZED." So beautiful church buildings and fancy alters became the norm, along with celibacy, the papacy. This church sought to promote its authority and attacked anyone who questioned their position of power and interpretation of scripture. As a direct result the Dark Ages came in as the church became more unholy. It was not until the Bible once again became widely read by everyone that the Roman Catholic church began to lose its control.
I do admit I was born in the United States in the 1950's. I do see that most societies were once greatly influenced by America and not the other way around as much. I note that the USSR is not so atheistic as it once was. I also note that as education in the United States became more secularized and irreligious that deep thought, respect, and a real desire to learn took a second place to amusement and apathy.
OK, then You are not catholic, but other denomination --- I don't care which one of the hundreds or thousands. In US or wherever.
You didn't answer, by the way.
Why Jehovah ? What did make You christian --- and not muslim and not buddhist and not a member of hinduism, krishnaism, shinto or whatever belief created by productive imagination of preachers, chiefs and wizards ?
Or, as I mentioned, You was born in a family of the same religion You want to push in our throat...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
ludwigm wrote:OK, then You are not catholic, but other denomination --- I don't care which one of the hundreds or thousands. In US or wherever.
You didn't answer, by the way.
Why Jehovah ? What did make You christian --- and not muslim and not buddhist and not a member of hinduism, krishnaism, shinto or whatever belief created by productive imagination of preachers, chiefs and wizards ?
Or, as I mentioned, You was born in a family of the same religion You want to push in our throat...
The simple answer is, the kind of society that is fostered by the general belief of a nation . Is an atheistic state a wonderful place to live? The USSR was not and neither was Communist China and North Korea. What about a progressive evolutionist state? Nazi Germany most certainly wasn't. Okay, how about a Hindu state? Well, if one belongs to a particular cast ---- maybe, but it was Christian missionaries who influenced India to move towards ending cast restrictions. Moslem ---- they seems to make the life of women very restrictive. The general influence is that life is very cheap! The Shinto belief is the reason Japan was able to attack the United States and hurt those they captured without remorse and practice suicide. They certainly didn't respect other nationals. Ok, and then there is ancient Rome under paganism. Isn't this why killing in the arena was totally acceptable to everyone? They certainly didn't value human life. I wouldn't want to live in ancient Rome unless I was wealthy. And then there is America. They have certainly made many errors of judgment. But is does seem that the Bible regularly comes into play when opinions are being swayed. Everything from slavery to execution, education, and race relations. America was not founded in a vacuum. It is not always the best example but it is an honest one. Christianly has been USED to do bad things. But has such gone unpunished for long? It goes without saying that Christianity has had the broadest influence on the way people live and learn to respect each other than any other form of belief. The reality is that under a generally accepted leading of Christian ethics, people have had the opportunity to live and work in relative safety. And being just average is no longer considered unimportant or without value. The poor man can sit right next to a rich man in church or many other places for that matter and not be ashamed. That has NEVER been the practice among most other beliefs or even among "Intellectuals" of the educated "elite: for that matter ----------------- unless they happen to be firmly rooted in the love of Christ. Can you really say that euthanasia, abortion, sexual promiscuity, normalization of impropriety, excluding others, belittling individuals, accepting fate and luck ----- are the traits of Christianity? Can you honestly say this?
Last edited by Guest on Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.