Science is a tool that can be abused!

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_spotlight
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

Franktalk wrote:Does that mean I am about to evolve into the next advanced human?

Why,...why yes! Just sit in this chair while we remove your brain. At your advanced level of understanding you no longer require it and it is only getting in your way. Silly scientists think we need a brain for the mind to exist. You'll show them! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Franktalk
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Franktalk »

spotlight wrote:Why,...why yes! Just sit in this chair while we remove your brain. At your advanced level of understanding you no longer require it and it is only getting in your way. Silly scientists think we need a brain for the mind to exist. You'll show them! :lol: :lol: :lol:


My goodness Spotlight, it is your beliefs I throw back at you. But as a broken clock is correct twice a day you did get something right. "Silly scientist"
_spotlight
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

Franktalk wrote:My goodness Spotlight, it is your beliefs I throw back at you. But as a broken clock is correct twice a day you did get something right. "Silly scientist"

I don't bother with beliefs. Wherever the evidence leads us is fine with me. Oh, but you consider following the evidence to be an unwarranted "belief" I suppose. :rolleyes:
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_subgenius
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _subgenius »

spotlight wrote:
SG wrote:Not true. Science concedes, necessarily, that nothing is really "objective" with regards to its paradigm.

Science like most disciplines has its own unique vocabulary since without it communication is not precise.
big ol' difference between vocabulary and paradigm
Objective simply means freedom from bias on the part of investigators. No matter your worldview, water runs downhill, apples fall from trees rather than float upwards, etc.
oh, I see..by "science", you mean the ability to define words and concepts in a manner that best fits your narrative. ...the rest of us call that moving the goal posts
"To apply modern scientific-rationalist or post-modern deconstruction is a rhetorical tactic used by apologists who would denigrate objective evidence (verifiable information) because they lack the same to support claims of knowledge about invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural beings." - Zzyzx
again, "verifiable" becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You "verifying" that 2+2=4 by adding 1+1+1+1 does not make 4 objective, or "real", or even verified. Assuming an apple will fall every time is not 100% because every apple has not been observed doing the fall or the not fall....again, probability
Increased or high rates of probability are not "objective".

How often does water flow uphill? How often do apples fly away from the tree up into the sky? :rolleyes:
oh, you mean like the Leidenfrost Effect ? http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2013121 ... run-uphill
Or were you predictably unaware of the subterranean rivers rivers of Antarctica?
So....again...not as you "believe" it to be....or is it?

Furthermore, many positions are backed by "objective evidence". Many experiments within the faith/religious paradigm are replicated with the same results and at high rates of probability.

Experiments need to be repeatable by anyone, not a limited group of people.
anyone with a super collider? Yep, no limited group of people there
SG wrote:You seem to want to confuse/confound apples with oranges.

That seems to me what you are attempting to accomplish.
you didn't know the difference to begin with
SG wrote:I have no interest in ignoring evidence,

Then it would be nice if someone from your camp addressed some of it instead of ignoring it.
for example?
SG wrote:but you seem to have an interest in holding "evidence" in a very narrow, shallow, and confined box.

Yes, the objective box.

yeh, that doesn't exist. ..what you mean is that little box made of your presuppositions
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_spotlight
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

subconscious wrote:big ol' difference between vocabulary and paradigm

Yes well a paradigm is a model isn't it. The mind would be useless to the preservation of the body if it failed to model its surroundings effectively. Science makes it possible to enhance the accuracy of that model and we can test that accuracy by observing that the predictions of our models are indeed what we observe to happen.

oh, I see..by "science", you mean the ability to define words and concepts in a manner that best fits your narrative. ...the rest of us call that moving the goal posts

So describing water flowing downhill or apples falling to the ground is "moving the goal posts" is it? I thought they were observations.

again, "verifiable" becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You "verifying" that 2+2=4 by adding 1+1+1+1 does not make 4 objective, or "real", or even verified.

So observation is a self fulfilling prophecy is it?
It is objective because we can all agree on the outcome. That is what objective means. You do not get to redefine the English language. A number is real. Show me a number that can exist without a mind and a mind that can exist without a brain and you have an argument. What you lack is an observation of that which the rest of us refer to as evidence.

Assuming an apple will fall every time is not 100% because every apple has not been observed doing the fall or the not fall....again, probability

Again the mind models our environment or else it contributes nothing to our survival. Quantum probability in the macroscopic world is certainty. It only becomes significant in the microscopic realm and then it still follows a distribution. Observation is all that the mind has to work with. You are free to ignore observation and assume that that which is unobserved exists but it adds nothing to the model the mind creates to deal with the real world that determines your ability to survive.

oh, you mean like the Leidenfrost Effect?

You'll note that the surface was not flat but cut with a sawtooth pattern which allowed the laws of Newton to take effect to drive the droplet uphill. But of course your denial of the observable world would never let you get to the point of formulating the laws of Newton in the first place. Why did you bother to crawl out of the ocean and onto the land?

Or were you predictably unaware of the subterranean rivers rivers of Antarctica?

You are referring to pressure being able to overcome the effects of gravity? Yes water can be shot in an upward direction from a firehose. Very good. Why didn't you mention evaporation while you were at it. Did you learn how to debate from Kent Hovind?

anyone with a super collider? Yep, no limited group of people there

Anyone who manages to build a supercollider will get the same results is the point that is important. Do try to focus on what it is that matters.

you didn't know the difference to begin with

I am the one that is ok with observations. You seem to be the one that wishes to discredit them.

yeh, that doesn't exist. ..what you mean is that little box made of your presuppositions

No that little box determined by definition due to what is of significance to us as bodies with minds that model the surrounding world. If it doesn't exist go ahead and ignore it by jumping in front of a car traveling down the highway.

Then it would be nice if someone from your camp addressed some of it instead of ignoring it.
for example?

Pick any of my posts in the Celestial board that you disagree with and answer the data presented. No one has done so as yet.

Have you and Franktalk formed a solipsism meetup yet? You could debate each others existence.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Franktalk
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Franktalk »

spotlight wrote:Have you and Franktalk formed a solipsism meetup yet? You could debate each others existence.


Yet you have no problem with men of science meeting to get their message straight. Don't want to sound like there is any disagreement going on.

My personal experiences are my own. A meeting would be a waste of time. It seems to me that it makes you angry that anyone would disagree with you.
_Maksutov
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Maksutov »

Franktalk wrote:
spotlight wrote:Have you and Franktalk formed a solipsism meetup yet? You could debate each others existence.


Yet you have no problem with men of science meeting to get their message straight. Don't want to sound like there is any disagreement going on.

My personal experiences are my own. A meeting would be a waste of time. It seems to me that it makes you angry that anyone would disagree with you.


Interesting, I have never seen spotlight displaying anger in your exchanges, yet you have mentioned it more than once and are the source of images of "gas chambers" or what not references to violence. It seems that you have a lot of anger and resentment yourself, Frank, especially towards those who are more educated than you. It's a very unfortunate attitude, one guaranteed to keep you at the low level of intellectual functioning that you're so proud of.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_spotlight
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

"Men of science" can disagree about that which is as yet unconstrained by facts not yet discovered. As the facts are uncovered the areas of disagreement will move along with the frontlines of discovery.

You may disagree with science all you like, it has no effect upon facts, the collected evidence and our body of knowledge. Your dead weight will be carried along by those who are more intelligent than yourself. The flat earthers are your cousins in this along with other fundamentalists that turn their backs upon reality to varying degrees.

I am not angry at the gorillas that cannot understand calculus, nor the rest of the animal kingdom for their intellectual inabilities. I doubt that dolphins are angry at my inability to echolocate. Why should I be angry at humans who are not capable of understanding what others are capable of knowing? I cannot handle the math of many areas of science myself. I don't hate myself for that.

But I don't fight against the knowledge learned and gathered by others. I don't act as a retarding influence against the only source of actual progress that any animals have been able to make in better modeling the world around us. It may allow us to escape with our lives when the sun grows in size and engulfs the earth. Maybe we will be able due to our accumulated knowledge to terraform a moon in the solar system around a gas giant. It is just nuts to fight against science. It is more than a matter of simply being less intelligent, it is a form of self hatred, of hatred for our species, of hatred for life itself. The need to escape into a world of delusion is a selfish need. It is egotism and arrogance unbridled. It is the humble who set aside their desires to accept the facts for what they are. Those who fight against science are those who are angry and filled with hatred. Reality will persist despite your protests.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Franktalk
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Franktalk »

Spotlight,

I wish I lived in the world you described. Where men are reasonable and discovery leads the way. But I do not live in that world. I live in a world in which institutions of men form to suppress thought and men imagine that they know more than they do. I live in a world where the curious are punished and the parrot is rewarded. Where group think blocks progress and men rise on their personalities rather than accomplishments. How sad it is that when one comes along and complains about the system they are attacked by the mindless drones who give their lives for the care of a few leaders of thought. Yes, I wish I lived in the world you described. But I don't, I live in this one.
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Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

Franktalk wrote:Spotlight,

I wish I lived in the world you described. Where men are reasonable and discovery leads the way. But I do not live in that world. I live in a world in which institutions of men form to suppress thought and men imagine that they know more than they do. I live in a world where the curious are punished and the parrot is rewarded. Where group think blocks progress and men rise on their personalities rather than accomplishments. How sad it is that when one comes along and complains about the system they are attacked by the mindless drones who give their lives for the care of a few leaders of thought. Yes, I wish I lived in the world you described. But I don't, I live in this one.

If you bothered to look at the data you'd see you are wrong Frank. Enjoy your ignorance bliss.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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