My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

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_Maksutov
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Maksutov »

LittleNipper wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Completely incorrect. As per Wikipedia, "The mountains were formed over tens of millions of years as the African and Eurasian tectonic plates collided. "

Evidence from the Morris dynasty of creationist fantasists is not evidence, dear one. None of what you are preaching is accepted in schools of geology throughout the world, only in religious subsidiary organizations of apologists. Professions of articles of faith preclude scientific enterprise in this century. Your interpretations of geologic formations are without basis and insulting to the thousands of scientists and engineers who have labored to produce the evidence that you ignore, and who manage to run real world activities based on this knowledge without Bible in hand.

You do not have to get your understanding of science from Jack Chick comics. There are religious people throughout the world who do not accept young earth creationism. This is not a matter of faith but of fanaticism.

And everyone totally realizes that Wikipedia is the end all for "fact" ---- or is it just regurgitating what is presently societies accepted rationalizations? The strata was created and looked however ancient to the unenlightened observer. Then during the Flood and soon after the strata buckled, fractured, slid, was ultimately forced upward over itself forming mountain ranges. What had been underwater ended up upon mountain peaks. At the same time this caused heat which stirred up volcanic eruptions. During all this there were meteor/asteroid strikes. RAIN from heaven and geysers (fountains of the deep) shooting upward. Whether there was once an ice canopy surrounding this planet which ultimately collapsed is anyone's guess; however, with GOD all things are possible.


So Nipper, after posting how many pages of the Bible, you're going to condemn someone else for "regurgitation"? :lol:

With God all things are possible, except that they aren't. God doesn't heal amputees does he?

Ice canopy? Who said that, Henry Morris? That isn't science, Nipper. Neither is the "fountains of the deep" nonsense. Nor the global flood. Nor the two by two cartoon of Noah.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Maksutov
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Maksutov »

Franktalk wrote:
Maksutov wrote:After you've read those, come back and we'll talk.


But why did evolution make these emotions. To what benefit to the species? How did emotions grow step by step over millions of years? Your links do not give any detail as to why evolution took this direction. It looks like a story written by Darwin and you accepted it.


So you won't do the required reading? You get an F. But go on quoting the Bible, that's worked so well over the centuries. We can see how you and Nightlion are able to share the gospel--it turns into two preaching egotists who can't agree on anything. The reason why the founders took such pains to exclude God from the Constitution was exactly this: "God" breeds disagreement and discord, not unity, causes murkiness rather than clarity. "God" becomes a weapon that man uses against man. If you can't see that is our history it's because you don't want to.

Many, probably most, religionists in America accept science. Science vs Religion is not an inevitable conflict. There are conflicts between good science and poor science (pseudoscience) and between good religion and bad religion. Science and religion are apples and oranges. There has been a long interesting debate about concepts thrown about by Steven Jay Gould re: nonoverlapping magisteria. I don't agree with Gould but his concerns are real and valid.

As I've said before, I'm not against religion. I'm against stupid religion. And I'm not afraid to call it that.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_spotlight
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _spotlight »

Franktalk wrote:But why did evolution make these emotions. To what benefit to the species?


Neurons exist for the benefit of all the other cells in the body. Neurons are not essential for the basic life process, as all those living creatures that have no neurons at all easily demonstrate. But in complicated creatures with many cells, neurons assist the multicellular body proper with the management of life. That is the purpose of neurons and the purpose of the brains they constitute.

Even in modest brains, made of networks of neurons arranged as ganglia, neurons assist other cells in the body. They do so by receiving signals from body cells and either promoting the release of chemical molecules (as they do with a hormone secreted by an endocrine cell that reaches body cells and changes their function) or by making movements happen (as when neurons excite muscle fibers and make them contract). In the elaborate brains of complex creatures, however, networks of neurons eventually come to mimic the structure of parts of the body to which they belong. They end up representing the state of the body, literally mapping the body for which they work and constituting a sort of virtual surrogate of it, a neural double.

In brief, neurons are about the body, and this "aboutness," this relentless pointing to the body, is the defining trait of neurons, neuron circuits, and brains. Curiously the fact that neurons and brains are about the body also suggests how the external world would get mapped in the brain and mind. When the brain maps the world external to the body, it does so thanks to the mediation of the body. When the body interacts with its environment, changes occur in the body's sensory organs, such as the eyes, ears, and skin; the brain maps those changes, and thus the world outside the body indirectly acquires some form of representation within the brain.

Life requires the transformation of suitable nutrients into energy, and that, in turn, calls for the ability to solve several problems: finding the energy products, placing them inside the body, converting them into the universal currency of energy known as ATP, disposing of the waste, and using the energy for whatever the body needs to continue this same routine of finding the right stuff, incorporating it, and so forth.

The mechanics of life management are crucial because of its difficulty. Life is a precarious state, made possible only when a large number of conditions are met simultaneously within the body's interior. The amounts of oxygen and carbon dioxide can vary only within a narrow range, as can the acidity of the bath in which chemical molecules of every sort can travel from cell to cell. The same applies to temperature; it also applies to the amount of fundamental nutrients in circulation - sugars, fats, proteins. We feel discomfort when the variations depart from the nice and narrow range, and we feel quite agitated if we go for a very long time without doing something about the situation. These mental states and behaviors are signs that the ironclad rules of life regulation are being disobeyed; they are prompts from the netherlands of nonconscious processing toward minded and conscious life, requesting us to find a reasonable solution for a situation that can no longer be managed by automatic, nonconscious devices.

The process of achieving the balanced state necessary for life is called homeostasis. At the level of gene networks the primitive of value would consist of an ordering of gene expressions that would result in the construction of "homeostatically competent" organisms.

A good part of those instructions must have consisted of constructing devices capable of conducting efficient life regulation. The newly assembled devices handled the distributions of rewards, the application of punishments, and the prediction of situations that an organism would face. In brief, gene instructions led to the construction of devices capable of executing what, in complex organisms like us, came to flourish as emotions, in the broad sense of the term.

Is homeostasis enough to guarantee survival? Not really, because attempting to correct homeostatic imbalances after they begin is inefficient and risky. Evolution took care of this problem by introducing devices that allow organisms to anticipate imbalances and that motivate them to explore environments likely to offer solutions.

Snippets from Self Comes to Mind - Antonio Damasio
Last edited by Guest on Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_huckelberry
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _huckelberry »

LittleNipper wrote:And everyone totally realizes that Wikipedia is the end all for "fact" ---- or is it just regurgitating what is presently societies accepted rationalizations? The strata was created and looked however ancient to the unenlightened observer. Then during the Flood and soon after the strata buckled, fractured, slid, was ultimately forced upward over itself forming mountain ranges. What had been underwater ended up upon mountain peaks. At the same time this caused heat which stirred up volcanic eruptions. During all this there were meteor/asteroid strikes. RAIN from heaven and geysers (fountains of the deep) shooting upward. Whether there was once an ice canopy surrounding this planet which ultimately collapsed is anyone's guess; however, with GOD all things are possible.


Little Nipper , can't blame you for complaining about the appeal to authority there, though perhaps such appeals occasionally mean something. You use them yourself on occasion.

Reading this theory you present here I start wondering what we might see about time after all these big changes. It takes me back to those canyons in southeastern Washington state cut into 3000 feet plus of volcanic rock. If the rock was erupted during or shortly after the flood. when were the canyons formed?

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.03092,- ... 633!8i2283


https://www.google.com/maps/@46.0627549 ... 233!8i1830

The second of these images shows the side of the canyon and how each little spring rivelet forms its own deep cut in the side of the canyon. It is interesting how it appears os though the sides are soft material They are in fact composed of layer upon layer of basalt rock. When the rock is exposed, it is in lots and lots of spots, pieces slowly break away forming piles of gravel and sand, this material buids up into a layer which grows grass and other plant life covering the abrupt ledges of hard rock.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_spotlight
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _spotlight »

Franktalk wrote:Spotlight,

I would like you to explain why the brain evolved in such a way that human belief systems became so diverse and emotional.


My personal take is that along with consciousness came the knowledge of death and religion was invented to deal with that.

Belief systems or more exactly representations of the external world is what the unconscious brain and conscious mind do for the survival of the body. Science is merely an extension of that brain activity. You intuitively know the path that a rock you hurl will travel through the air. You may not know it follows a parabolic path but you know that path through trial and experiment. Science simply takes this activity further and allows us to get to more precise predictive capabilities.

Here are some other takes on why the evolution of religious beliefs had survival value:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =129528196
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYwWZ9QTNLE

The question of why these beliefs are diverse is easier to answer. They are diverse because they do not really relate to anything real. They are made up explanations (for thunder, etc). Since they are made up and do not relate to reality in the sense that they are an accurate depiction of the reason for some phenomenon they are going to be all over the place, or diverse.

Why there are emotions tied to beliefs is the same reason emotions are tied to just about everything. Emotions were to first reward and punishment mechanism the brain evolved to help with the survival of the body.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Franktalk
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Franktalk »

spotlight wrote:My personal take is that along with consciousness came the knowledge of death and religion was invented to deal with that.

Belief systems or more exactly representations of the external world is what the unconscious brain and conscious mind do for the survival of the body. Science is merely an extension of that brain activity. You intuitively know the path that a rock you hurl will travel through the air. You may not know it follows a parabolic path but you know that path through trial and experiment. Science simply takes this activity further and allows us to get to more precise predictive capabilities.

Here are some other takes on why the evolution of religious beliefs had survival value:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =129528196
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYwWZ9QTNLE

The question of why these beliefs are diverse is easier to answer. They are diverse because they do not really relate to anything real. They are made up explanations (for thunder, etc). Since they are made up and do not relate to reality in the sense that they are an accurate depiction of the reason for some phenomenon they are going to be all over the place, or diverse.

Why there are emotions tied to beliefs is the same reason emotions are tied to just about everything. Emotions were to first reward and punishment mechanism the brain evolved to help with the survival of the body.


What you wrote is a story. Where is the actual evidence that emotions and self awareness increased fitness in the species so the brain evolved to enhance those qualities. And while the human species was doing this did it also evolve in other areas as well. Hair color variation, reduced body hair, and walking upright to name a few.
_Maksutov
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Maksutov »

Franktalk wrote:What you wrote is a story. Where is the actual evidence that emotions and self awareness increased fitness in the species so the brain evolved to enhance those qualities. And while the human species was doing this did it also evolve in other areas as well. Hair color variation, reduced body hair, and walking upright to name a few.


He gave you an explanation based on the work of many people. People we can verify and cross examine. What do you have?
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_spotlight
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _spotlight »

Franktalk wrote:What you wrote is a story. Where is the actual evidence that emotions and self awareness increased fitness in the species so the brain evolved to enhance those qualities. And while the human species was doing this did it also evolve in other areas as well. Hair color variation, reduced body hair, and walking upright to name a few.


And here you go again criticizing others for the very same things you are guilty of in spades. Your entire belief system is nothing but your own made up story with nothing at all to back it up.

A lack of explanation for some aspect of evolution does nothing to substantiate the nonsense you espouse Frank any more than it would establish my belief in invisible pink unicorns. Why does this point continually escape your notice?

There is a record of the evolution of the brain in the fossil record. We have found the damage to the DNA resulting in weakened jaw muscles that allowed the human cranium to grow larger. Goosebumps are a vestigial trait that no longer serve the purpose of making body hair stand on end so that we have extra insulation from the cold. Walking upright coincided with a change in environment where we left the trees for the savanna, etc. This is not a story, it is the combined facts of many working in these various disciplines of science Frank. C14 dating is valid and is real Frank. It is calibrated against tree ring data. Three separate tree genealogies are used from opposite sides of the world and they agree with one another Frank. Not a made up story at all.

What you declare to be the truth is on the other hand completely made up and espoused by only one or two individuals in the entire history of mankind. Which is more likely Frank? That the entire scientific enterprise is an illusion and that one person taking an inward journey has it right? Or that there is something to the findings of the scientific community and your inward journey is the illusion?
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Quasimodo »

Franktalk wrote:
What you wrote is a story. Where is the actual evidence that emotions and self awareness increased fitness in the species so the brain evolved to enhance those qualities. And while the human species was doing this did it also evolve in other areas as well. Hair color variation, reduced body hair, and walking upright to name a few.


If you don't mind, I'll have a stab at it.

Emotions are not just found in humans. Most social animals display emotions because it's an important trait in maintaining successful social interactions. Dogs (wolves), elephants, horses, all primates, cattle (herding animals, lions (most felines) and a myriad of others. Social lifestyle and community cooperation are a huge advantage in survival. A definite plus in natural selection.

Self awareness is a function of high intelligence. Higher intelligence is a big plus in survival.

Hair color may have played a roll in increased sexual attraction to possible mates as well as adaptations to various climates. Skin color, as well. The cuter ones get to reproduce.

Reduced body hair may have played a roll in body cooling efficiency for animals that perspire in warmer climates (horses and primates) .

Walking upright had some big evolutionary advantages. Mothers could carry small children greater distances which would increase their ability to find food and escape threats. Hands were freed up for tool use.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
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Re: My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

Post by _Franktalk »

Quasimodo wrote:If you don't mind, I'll have a stab at it.

Emotions are not just found in humans. Most social animals display emotions because it's an important trait in maintaining successful social interactions. Dogs (wolves), elephants, horses, all primates, cattle (herding animals, lions (most felines) and a myriad of others. Social lifestyle and community cooperation are a huge advantage in survival. A definite plus in natural selection.

Self awareness is a function of high intelligence. Higher intelligence is a big plus in survival.

Hair color may have played a roll in increased sexual attraction to possible mates as well as adaptations to various climates. Skin color, as well. The cuter ones get to reproduce.

Reduced body hair may have played a roll in body cooling efficiency for animals that perspire in warmer climates (horses and primates) .

Walking upright had some big evolutionary advantages. Mothers could carry small children greater distances which would increase their ability to find food and escape threats. Hands were freed up for tool use.


Again this is a story. People look around with one mind set and this is what they come up with. I am sorry but it is a story. It is no different than a religious person who says God did it. It is a story.

words you used
may have played
attraction to possible mates
may have played

You don't know and you have no evidence that your story is actually what happened.
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