Who Knows wrote: Very true. But I'm not referring to people who believe in something (religion, aliens, etc.). I'm referring specifically to people who believe they've experienced certain events - being abducted by an alien, being visited by God or Jesus, believing they're in possession of something that's not real, etc. Believing in aliens is different than believing you've been abducted by an alien. Believing in God is different than believing you've met face to face with God.
Some people exaggerate and even invent alien abduction stories. Others have been put under hypnosis and even had lie detector tests and passed. It seems clear that Joseph Smith had a penchant for exaggeration, but that does not mean he didn't have a profound religious experience as a young man. Michael Marquart in his book Inventing Mormonism detailed several people who had visions of God and Jesus Christ, using almost the same terminology of Joseph Smith, and they were contemporaries of Joseph. People do this. They consider their experiences so strong that they embellish, but that doesn't mean they experienced nothing, and were making it all up. Embellishment is almost a pattern of theophany descriptions. So when you hear one, divide it by three.
Ray A wrote:So when you were a believing Mormon, were you a fraud?
When I told people that I KNEW the church was true - yes, I was a fraud. And I regret every time I said that. :( I just hope the people who were influenced by my lie (and ended up joining the church) somehow forgive me for it.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Who Knows wrote: Very true. But I'm not referring to people who believe in something (religion, aliens, etc.). I'm referring specifically to people who believe they've experienced certain events - being abducted by an alien, being visited by God or Jesus, believing they're in possession of something that's not real, etc. Believing in aliens is different than believing you've been abducted by an alien. Believing in God is different than believing you've met face to face with God.
Some people exaggerate and even invent alien abduction stories. Others have been put under hypnosis and even had lie detector tests and passed. It seems clear that Joseph Smith had a penchant for exaggeration, but that does not mean he didn't have a profound religious experience as a young man. Michael Marquart in his book Inventing Mormonism detailed several people who had visions of God and Jesus Christ, using almost the same terminology of Joseph Smith, and they were contemporaries of Joseph. People do this. They consider their experiences so strong that they embellish, but that doesn't mean they experienced nothing, and were making it all up. Embellishment is almost a pattern of theophany descriptions. So when you hear one, divide it by three.
OK. So maybe there's a grey line - on one end you have minor embellishment (not fraud) and on the other end you've got major embellishment (fraud). The grander the embellishment, the more likely it is a fraud. What do you think?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Who Knows wrote:When I told people that I KNEW the church was true - yes, I was a fraud. And I regret every time I said that. :( I just hope the people who were influenced by my lie (and ended up joining the church) somehow forgive me for it.
No, you were not a fraud. Unless you meant to intentionally deceive, which I'm sure you didn't.
Who Knows wrote:When I told people that I KNEW the church was true - yes, I was a fraud. And I regret every time I said that. :( I just hope the people who were influenced by my lie (and ended up joining the church) somehow forgive me for it.
No, you were not a fraud. Unless you meant to intentionally deceive, which I'm sure you didn't.
I've written before about how I knowingly withheld information from investigators, and I believe that does indeed make me a fraud and a liar. I hope I've repented sufficiently of that.
Who Knows wrote:When I told people that I KNEW the church was true - yes, I was a fraud. And I regret every time I said that. :( I just hope the people who were influenced by my lie (and ended up joining the church) somehow forgive me for it.
No, you were not a fraud. Unless you meant to intentionally deceive, which I'm sure you didn't.
Of course I did. I told people that I KNEW the church was true, when I personally knew I didn't know the church was true. I wanted them to think I knew the church was true. I believed in the church, and believed that I was 'lying for the lord' - In other words, I was intentionally being deceitful.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Runtu wrote:I've written before about how I knowingly withheld information from investigators
I'm right there with you man. We were doing it 'for the greater good'. But that still doesn't release us from fault.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Who Knows wrote:OK. So maybe there's a grey line - on one end you have minor embellishment (not fraud) and on the other end you've got major embellishment (fraud). The grander the embellishment, the more likely it is a fraud. What do you think?
How much more embellishment can you get than the Christian story? Does anyone in their "right mind" believe people can walk on water, raise the dead, die and resurrect? Yet people still believe it. My point here is not whether this is fraud, but what people are capable of sincerely believing.
Who Knows wrote:OK. So maybe there's a grey line - on one end you have minor embellishment (not fraud) and on the other end you've got major embellishment (fraud). The grander the embellishment, the more likely it is a fraud. What do you think?
How much more embellishment can you get than the Christian story? Does anyone in their "right mind" believe people can walk on water, raise the dead, die and resurrect? Yet people still believe it. My point here is not whether this is fraud, but what people are capable of sincerely believing.
Ray, how can I state it more clearly? There is a difference in believing in something, and believing you've experienced something - ie., believing in aliens vs. believing you've met aliens face to face. Or, believing in God vs. believing you've met god face to face.
The people who believe in christianity are not frauds. The people who have embellished the christian story (or outright fabricated things) are frauds.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Who Knows wrote:The people who believe in christianity are not frauds. The people who have embellished the christian story (or outright fabricated things) are frauds.
It's not always so black and white. I know from research that at least one pope talked about "the myth of Christ" bringing "us so much profit". That is fraud. Unless we have admissions like this it's hard to know who was sincere, and who was a fraud. Joseph Smith presents a much more complex picture. Even when William Marks questioned polygamy, Joseph's response was telling. He thought Marks may have been right, momentarily, but reaffirmed his belief that it was from God. At worst this was self-delusion. If I can find one admission from Joseph Smith, as above from the pope, I would consider him a fraud.