"Losing our Religion" on NPR

[_Samantabhadra]

Even so, I think his timeline is off. Greeks were "civilized" at least in parallel with the Persians, no need to make it a European/Asian divide. I do not think the position is historically valid.

You can think whatever you want but that doesn't make it so. Anyway I guess it depends on your definition of "civilization" which is a notoriously slippery word that I perhaps shouldn't have used. My point was that the Persians had a centralized Empire several centuries before Pericles. Moreover I purposefully did not make a "European/Asian divide" precisely on account of the fact that Persians are Indo-European Aryans (that's what the word "Iran" means, after all). Actually linguists refer to the most general set of the language family as Indo-Iranian.

Either way this is immaterial to my point, which was that Iranian society has a long cultural history of high educational standards and as of the Islamic Revolution had much more in common with liberal European societies than with, say, Saudi society; even today Iran still produces (heavily censured) artists and filmmakers in a way that virtually no other even nominally Muslim society does. Which is just to say that DrW's bullet-point view of the Islamic Revolution and religion in Iran, while not technically inaccurate, misses some of the broader context. The fundamentalists are certainly in charge, but--in ways not reducible to the theological differences between Shi'a and Sunni--Iranian Islam is not the same beast as Arab Islam.

[_subgenius]

i fear that Dr W has slipped away less he further detected...and as Ludwig mutters about his bookshelves, it can surely only be surmised that this thread, as it was intended, has died....or at least has been "lost".

[_Bhodi]

You can think whatever you want but that doesn't make it so.

Agreed, but your analysis is historically incorrect.

Anyway I guess it depends on your definition of "civilization" which is a notoriously slippery word that I perhaps shouldn't have used. My point was that the Persians had a centralized Empire several centuries before Pericles.

Yes, but this was several centuries after the Olympic games were established, and other clearly civilized activities in the Greek world. You either did not know about these (likely) or ignored them.

Moreover I purposefully did not make a "European/Asian divide" precisely on account of the fact that Persians are Indo-European Aryans (that's what the word "Iran" means, after all). Actually linguists refer to the most general set of the language family as Indo-Iranian.

Which is again historically incorrect as the Greek world (which would follow with the Roman World) clearly saw a distinct divide between their world and that of Persia, Persia being an "Eastern" culture and geography. Our term is Asia, but it would be completely incorrect lump Persians in with Europeans. Additionally Indo-European is a linguistic differentiation, hardly a metric dealing with geography. India is also in the Indo-European family tree, but are hardly Europeans.

Either way this is immaterial to my point, which was that Iranian society has a long cultural history of high educational standards and as of the Islamic Revolution had much more in common with liberal European societies than with, say, Saudi society; even today Iran still produces (heavily censured) artists and filmmakers in a way that virtually no other even nominally Muslim society does.

Which is a poorly informed opinion. You use the term Muslim Society in a way that implies you see the world as Iranian and Arab, but you are ignoring Asian Muslims completely. You are ignoring the art and literature that has been, is being, and will be produced. I've always been partial to the Andalusian period myself.

Which is just to say that DrW's bullet-point view of the Islamic Revolution and religion in Iran, while not technically inaccurate, misses some of the broader context. The fundamentalists are certainly in charge, but--in ways not reducible to the theological differences between Shi'a and Sunni--Iranian Islam is not the same beast as Arab Islam.

Again ignoring Asian Islam (neither Iranian, nor Arab). It would also be incorrect to call Iranian clergy "fundamentalist" they are actually fairly progressive depending on your point of view.

[_Samantabhadra]

I did not ignore Asian Islam or anything else. You made this same mistake with DrW. Here's a tip: just because someone doesn't mention something explicitly, does not mean they are unaware of it. It just means that, for the purposes of conveying their point, they consider it to be ancillary and thus deleterious to the goal of concise expression.

For the record, 1) I have been several times to both Mycenae and Knossos, which doesn't change the fact that the Golden Age of Athens happened several centuries after the peak of ancient Persian civilization, and 2) the Aryans were a Central Asian people who migrated by waves into Iran, north India, and Europe; the line between linguistic and ethnic categories is accordingly blurry, no less so than the artificial distinction between "Europe" and "Asia" in the first place.

But that has nothing to do with the fact that modern Iranian society has a long and rich cultural history. In other words, if you had decent reading comprehension skills, you would have been able to remove your head from your backside long enough to realize that I was agreeing with you against DrW's somewhat simplistic take on the issue of Iranian religiosity. Obviously, however, your primary concern is to nitpick and strain at gnats. Accordingly I consider it a spiritual service in your benefit to refrain from giving you any more occasion to embarrass yourself with displays of obnoxious pedantry.

[_Bhodi]

I did not ignore Asian Islam or anything else.

Then how did you take it into account with your comments?

You made this same mistake with DrW. Here's a tip: just because someone doesn't mention something explicitly, does not mean they are unaware of it.

No, I think this is a subject you're not really that well versed in, and you are making a LOT of mistakes. To cover those mistakes, you seem to be getting extremely angry, offensive, and suffering from a bruised ego. For example, you said...

"Persians have been civilized for longer than Europeans and but for an accident of history the foundations of Western civilization would be Persian rather than Greek."

As evidence, you provided the Median Empire (roughly 600 BC), but the Greeks were having unified Olympic games 200 years before this. Your claim of "civilization" was clearly flawed, and likely because of poor information rather than deliberate misrepresentation, nevertheless your argument was clearly flawed. You tried to back track by claiming...

"For the record, 1) I have been several times to both Mycenae and Knossos, which doesn't change the fact that the Golden Age of Athens happened several centuries after the peak of ancient Persian civilization"

Except there is no reason to limit civilization to Athens, this is unnecessary. Why would you change your argument at this point, if not because you found evidence you were unaware of, and needed to save face? Your ego is hurting you.

the Aryans were a Central Asian people who migrated by waves into Iran, north India, and Europe; the line between linguistic and ethnic categories is accordingly blurry, no less so than the artificial distinction between "Europe" and "Asia" in the first place.

Certainly not. Both the Greeks and Romans saw a distinct difference between their cultures and the Persians, to the point that they thought their cultures were diametrically opposed. Your attempt to equate the two is very odd.

But that has nothing to do with the fact that modern Iranian society has a long and rich cultural history. In other words, if you had decent reading comprehension skills, you would have been able to remove your head from your backside long enough to realize that I was agreeing with you against DrW's somewhat simplistic take on the issue of Iranian religiosity. Obviously, however, your primary concern is to nitpick and strain at gnats. Accordingly I consider it a spiritual service in your benefit to refrain from giving you any more occasion to embarrass yourself with displays of obnoxious pedantry.

What you do not know is that Modern Arabic culture ALSO has a long and rich cultural history. You said "even today Iran still produces (heavily censured) artists and filmmakers in a way that virtually no other even nominally Muslim society does" which is completely untrue. You likely are unfamiliar with Arabic (or even Iranian) art and culture, but you ignored, among others Nobel Laureate Naguib Mahfouz in the modern era, and the centuries of Islamic art and thought. There is no way you could make that statement if you actually had familiarity with the Muslim world. You did not agree with me, because I never would have made that statement.

You also need to consider your reaction. Finding out you are wrong should not engender the animosity, hatred, anger, and negativity your posts contain. You seem to be an angry, angry person, you need to consider that before it gets the better of you. You have attempted to lecture me on the dharma, but by your actions I think you need to reconsider your position.

[_Samantabhadra]

1) Persians, like Greeks, were civilized long before Europeans (defining Europe as west of the Urals and north of the Balkans).

2) Cyrus the Great could have steamrolled right over the Greeks. He didn't even bother because at that time they were nothing compared to the Babylonians and the Sumerians. Who cares about the Olympic games?

3) The Greeks were still nothing compared to the Persians as of the reign of Darius, who--but for an accident of history at Marathon--would have ensured the roots of Western civilization to be Zoroastrian Persian rather than Hellenic. Marathon was basically the only Persian loss of the entire campaign, they had complete domination over the Aegean and the Ionian islands as well as Asia Minor.

4) You're right, in general I don't think much of Arab culture, particularly on the Peninsula (Arabs have seemed to fair better when they take over other people's civilizations as in north Africa and Spain).

What exactly did Arabs contribute to human civilization prior to the conquest of Mecca?

[_SteelHead]

Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, "The flag moves." The other said, "The wind moves." They argued back and forth but could not agree. Hui-neng, the sixth Patriarch, said: "Gentlemen! It is not the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is your mind that moves."

" Girls, girls, you're both pretty! Can I go home now?"

[_Bhodi]

1) Persians, like Greeks, were civilized long before Europeans (defining Europe as west of the Urals and north of the Balkans).

So you have a specific exclusionary definition of Europe? Odd. This is also the origin of the Germanic tribes. Very odd.

2) Cyrus the Great could have steamrolled right over the Greeks. He didn't even bother because at that time they were nothing compared to the Babylonians and the Sumerians. Who cares about the Olympic games?

Well, we still celebrate the Olympic Games, so it seems persistent, and it is evidence of advanced civilization, but if you are going to advocate a German ethnocentric superiority, I suppose you would not approve of the Greeks.

3) The Greeks were still nothing compared to the Persians as of the reign of Darius, who--but for an accident of history at Marathon--would have ensured the roots of Western civilization to be Zoroastrian Persian rather than Hellenic. Marathon was basically the only Persian loss of the entire campaign, they had complete domination over the Aegean and the Ionian islands as well as Asia Minor.

Ethnic superiority. Interesting opinion.

4) You're right, in general I don't think much of Arab culture, particularly on the Peninsula (Arabs have seemed to fair better when they take over other people's civilizations as in north Africa and Spain).

What exactly did Arabs contribute to human civilization prior to the conquest of Mecca?

And anti-Semitic to boot. I suspect you have no real knowledge of Arabic civilization, but I also doubt it really matters.