The Bottom Line

[_Albion]

Tobin, I will respond to your charge that I reject the Godly experiences of others. I would not accept that at all in the general sense but I most definitely would reject those experiences as not coming through the Holy Spirit if they did not conform to God's word as it is written. It is for that reason that I completely reject the "new gospel" teachings of Joseph Smith....teachings which in so many ways deny the sufficiency of Christ for full and complete salvation. I accept the prophets of the Bible but while I accept that the spirit of prophecy is alive and well I do reject the idea and the need for prophets today in the sense of the prophets of old. "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." I take the writer of Hebrews words as they are written and believe that God has nothing of more importance to say to the world as a whole than he has said. That's what prophets were for, as part of the process with God's chosen people in bringing forth the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus so that salvation might be proclaimed. Jesus and Jesus only is the "the way, the truth and the life." To have Jesus is to have everything. Certainly, the Holy Spirit will prompt us to righteous living and to knowing God's will for our lives but his primary purpose is to testify to us of salvation in Christ Jesus. Now I know you don't accept this...how could you when you accept Joseph Smith and measure so much of the Bible against what he taught rather than measuring what he taught against the Bible.

I believe sincerely that Mormonism is the invention of the adversary and his imprint can be clearly seen in everything...from the denial in so many ways of the sufficiency of Christ for full salvation (works added to grace, the great lie of Satan in the garden that men can become like God...temple rituals that add non Biblical signs and tokens as check points to heaven instead of God's amazing grace alone...just to name a few) and even down to the symbols of the occult and idol worship that adorn so many Mormon buildings.

Your last two posts appear to me to represent some backtracking on your original claim that you have seen God. By "seen" I assumed, and why would I think otherwise, that you claimed an actual, visual sighting of God...a literal confrontation with the Almighty. Are you now agreeing it was a "figurative" confrontation...something not to be taken literally as you implied. The scriptures clearly state that no one has seen God. Who am I to believe...you...Joseph Smith who didn't even include God in his first "vision" account? I know where my trust lies

I have expressed to you that I do not question the sincerity of what you claim to have seen...only its source. I have no doubt, too, that like many Mormons I know you are sincere in your support of Mormonism. Unfortunately, I repeat that you are still not willing to accept that I am sincere in my concern for your salvation. If I may paraphrase Paul in Romans 10.

...my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Mormons is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they do not know the righteousness that comes from God and seek to establish their own, they do not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law and of the prophets so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

[_Tobin]

Tobin, I will respond to your charge that I reject the Godly experiences of others. I would not accept that at all in the general sense but I most definitely would reject those experiences as not coming through the Holy Spirit if they did not conform to God's word as it is written. It is for that reason that I completely reject the "new gospel" teachings of Joseph Smith....teachings which in so many ways deny the sufficiency of Christ for full and complete salvation. I accept the prophets of the Bible but while I accept that the spirit of prophecy is alive and well I do reject the idea and the need for prophets today in the sense of the prophets of old. "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." I take the writer of Hebrews words as they are written and believe that God has nothing of more importance to say to the world as a whole than he has said. That's what prophets were for, as part of the process with God's chosen people in bringing forth the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus so that salvation might be proclaimed. Jesus and Jesus only is the "the way, the truth and the life." To have Jesus is to have everything. Certainly, the Holy Spirit will prompt us to righteous living and to knowing God's will for our lives but his primary purpose is to testify to us of salvation in Christ Jesus. Now I know you don't accept this...how could you when you accept Joseph Smith and measure so much of the Bible against what he taught rather than measuring what he taught against the Bible.

I believe sincerely that Mormonism is the invention of the adversary and his imprint can be clearly seen in everything...from the denial in so many ways of the sufficiency of Christ for full salvation (works added to grace, the great lie of Satan in the garden that men can become like God...temple rituals that add non Biblical signs and tokens as check points to heaven instead of God's amazing grace alone...just to name a few) and even down to the symbols of the occult and idol worship that adorn so many Mormon buildings.

Your last two posts appear to me to represent some backtracking on your original claim that you have seen God. By "seen" I assumed, and why would I think otherwise, that you claimed an actual, visual sighting of God...a literal confrontation with the Almighty. Are you now agreeing it was a "figurative" confrontation...something not to be taken literally as you implied. The scriptures clearly state that no one has seen God. Who am I to believe...you...Joseph Smith who didn't even include God in his first "vision" account? I know where my trust lies

I have expressed to you that I do not question the sincerity of what you claim to have seen...only its source. I have no doubt, too, that like many Mormons I know you are sincere in your support of Mormonism. Unfortunately, I repeat that you are still not willing to accept that I am sincere in my concern for your salvation. If I may paraphrase Paul in Romans 10.

...my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Mormons is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they do not know the righteousness that comes from God and seek to establish their own, they do not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law and of the prophets so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

You seem intent to drag Mormonism and Joseph Smith into this. I have brought up neither topic.

I (and others) have just quoted the scriptures where they clearly and unequivocably state that men have seen God and spoken with him. You have dismissed them (and me). Why? Because you are of the opinion that no-one can see God. And it is inexplicable why you believe that. What is the point in believing in an invisible God that we can't see - can't experience - can't interact with? It is simply a fiction you have created for yourself. You pit that belief against the scriptures, against others that claim to have seen and spoken with God, and dismiss them because it doesn't fit your fiction.

I'll repeat again. I (and others including all the prophets) have seen God in much the same way Moses saw God, that Jacob saw God, that Abraham and all the prophets have seen God. I hope someday you will seek that God, experience him, speak with him and believe in him. God is real. God can be seen and spoken with and is not a fiction. And I invite you to come to God and experience him, listen to him, and follow him.

[_subgenius]

I am leaving this thread now, and going on to something else. Any who want to continue this discussion without me, are welcome to do so. My heartfelt thanks to all who have participated--especially subgenius, Tobin, Little Nipper and others who have inadvertently done even more to validate the conclusions stated in my OP than those who spoke out in favor of it!

nice concession speech

[_subgenius]

There is absolutely no evidence that proves that it is necessary to "analyze" to "judge" to "think" or to "interpret" one's Divine experience...the reason there is no evidence? because it is self-evident!

There is evidence, which has been brought up in the OP. Again I wonder how fallible people can receive an infallible experience. That it is necessary to analyze, judge, think, and interpret one's experience

huh?
i think you just summed up the error in the OP.
The fallibility of people is the result of that "decision making"...because the point is that if one is in a position to even make that decision, if someone is in the position to "weigh the evidence", then the experience, was in fact and by definition, NOT self-evident.
So, yes the OP suffers from a simple fallacy. It states nothing more than "water is wet". But the point was never intended to be about water....that is why i criticize the OP's paradigm and the OP author's own experiences because they both seem to be devoid of understanding the simple issue of self-evident.

and one can not possible believe that Gunnar "decided" that he ever loved or loves anyone or anything - talk about making a "truth" claim without a shred of proof! Have fun arguing the "reliability" of that method!

[_Albion]

Tobin, my "opinion " that man cannot see God is confirmed by scripture in more than one place as I clearly demonstrated to you out of Exodus when you used it to support your claim. It is very clearly stated in God's word. How much clearer can it be? I used Mormonism and Joseph Smith in my response because that is clearly the foundation on which you base you belief/delusion/manifestation that such meetings with God are real. I do not in anyway denigrate your desire to experience God, only what you claim as its source...the "fiction" you persist in contrary to God's word....apparently you are willing not to give the same respect to my sincerity which is firmly based on God's word as I have clearly demonstrated. If you really want to see God, see his Son whom he sent to die for you and who offers you full and complete salvation through his grace.....he is the only way to see God. On the rest we'll have to agree to disagree.

[_Tobin]

Tobin, my "opinion " that man cannot see God is confirmed by scripture in more than one place as I clearly demonstrated to you out of Exodus when you used it to support your claim. It is very clearly stated in God's word. How much clearer can it be? I used Mormonism and Joseph Smith in my response because that is clearly the foundation on which you base you belief/delusion/manifestation that such meetings with God are real. I do not in anyway denigrate your desire to experience God, only what you claim as its source...the "fiction" you persist in contrary to God's word....apparently you are willing not to give the same respect to my sincerity which is firmly based on God's word as I have clearly demonstrated. If you really want to see God, see his Son whom he sent to die for you and who offers you full and complete salvation through his grace.....he is the only way to see God. On the rest we'll have to agree to disagree.

You are welcome to believe anything you wish. I'll repeat that the scriptures teach no such thing and clearly indicate otherwise - as does my own personal experience. Again, I invite you to seek God, see and speak with him and follow him. But that is entirely up to you. In my view, I live the scriptures because they came to be by people seeking and speaking with God "face to face". It is a shame that you use those same scriptures in such a terrible way to prevent yourself from experiencing God and coming to truly know him.

[_Albion]

Tobin, as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree but I cannot allow you to abuse scripture in the way that you do. Now I know that Mormons love the "face to face" passage as somehow supporting Smith's claims to having seen God but I repeat that the rest of the chapter makes it perfectly clear that to see God, to gaze upon his "person" woulds mean instant death....something that would have happened to Moses had the "face to face" description been literal. John clearly and indisputably destroys the idea of anyone seeing God. I think you are in denial.

[_Tobin]

Tobin, as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree but I cannot allow you to abuse scripture in the way that you do. Now I know that Mormons love the "face to face" passage as somehow supporting Smith's claims to having seen God but I repeat that the rest of the chapter makes it perfectly clear that to see God, to gaze upon his "person" woulds mean instant death....something that would have happened to Moses had the "face to face" description been literal. John clearly and indisputably destroys the idea of anyone seeing God. I think you are in denial.

Albion, to be frank - it isn't only in Exodus that people see God. You really should become a bit more familiar with the Bible. In this thread alone we have cited multiple references to people seeing God (from the Bible). So your "understanding" of scripture is absurd. Period. And now I'll bring in Mormon scripture which makes it clear that men (including Joseph Smith) have seen God. And I have experienced God. As far as I am concerned, you are completely mistaken and have no understanding about God or the scriptures what-so-ever regarding this topic.

[_Albion]

I have not rested my case on Exodus... (though it clearly disproves your assertion) but I do rest it on the words of John which are beyond interpretation or debate. End of.

[_Tobin]

I have not rested my case on Exodus... (though it clearly disproves your assertion) but I do rest it on the words of John which are beyond interpretation or debate. End of.

Let's play a game and see what the Bible says about people having seen God just for fun. I have a listed just a few sightings of God. Albion, your position is completely and utterly absurd and does not reflect the Bible at all. And I'm through with you.

Genesis 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Genesis 18:1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre.

Genesis 26:2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.

Genesis 26:24 And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel (which literally means the face of God): for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Genesis 35:9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

Genesis 48:3 And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan.

Exodus 3:16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:

Exodus 4:5 That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Exodus 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.

Exodus 33:23 And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts.

Numbers 14:14 For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face.

Deuteronomy 5:4 The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire.

Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.

Judges 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

1 Kings 22:19 I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Psalm 63.2 To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up.

Isaiah 6:5 For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Ezekiel 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

Ezekiel 20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

Amos 7:7 The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand.

Amos 9:1 I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake.

Habakkuk 3:3-5 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power. Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.

Matthew 18:9 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.