LittleNipper wrote: The Universe is far --- far greater than any science book ever described it. And yet it is only a mere shadow of GOD its Creator. How much you are in danger of missing out on.
Of course the Universe is greater than any science book ever described it. But it is not a shadow of an imaginary being. It is all that is. But you wouldn't know that because you never leave copying and pasting your ancient books. Your book did not take us to land on other worlds. It did not help us understand human genetics or physiology. It did not help us map the solar system and the galaxy. It did not help us understand the history of humans all over the world, since it concerned itself only with a small tribe in the Middle East. It did not help us develop legitimate codes of morality because it sanctioned genocide and child abuse. It did not help us develop science because it fought science wherever it could.
Your book is the shadow, Nipper. It's the shadow of ignorance and abuse and delusion. There is poetry in it, but there is more poetry in the works of Mark Twain and Shakespeare and they did not have to send people on crusades and fatwas and holocausts. Your book is most powerful when people don't read it, only pretend to, because the worship of the Bible is another cult.
So, you don't know why man exists, what the difference between good and bad is, and you offer no hope for the dying. You chalk up the steady increase of earthquakes, growing intensity of tornadoes & hurricanes, and horrific shootings to nothing but ecological rhetoric and propaganda.
The crusades were a reaction to Muslim hostilities and invasion. And it never dawns on you that if the Bible was merely the "religious" imagination of a very small middle eastern country of sheepherders that we would not be discussing it now --- Mahamud would not have had anything to confuse & confound, and Joseph Smith would have only married once ---- if at all.
The reality is that evolutionists are scared because what they proposed would take millions of years is suddenly happening in quick order --- in other words, Creation and the Flood are even more likely than they would care to imagine --- given that they ignore GOD.
I then looked, and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion. And with Him were 144,000 who were labeled with both His name and His Father’s name on their foreheads.
I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of water gushing and like the sound of pealing thunder. This sound I heard was also like that of harpists playing on their harps.
They were singing a new song before the throne and before the 4 living beings and the elders, and no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who have been ransomed from the world.
These are the men who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; they follow the Lamb wherever He goes; they have been ransomed from among humanity as firstfruits for God and the Lamb.
Upon their lips no lie was found — they are without defect.
Following I observed another angel flying in midair with everlasting Good News to proclaim to those living on the earth — to every nation, tribe, language and people.
In a loud voice he said, “Regard God, give Him glory, for the hour has come when he will pass judgment! Worship the One who created heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water!”
Another angel, a 2nd one, followed, saying, “She has fallen! She has fallen! Babylon the Great! She caused all the nations to drink the wine of God’s fury caused by her whoring!”
Another angel, a 3rd one, followed them and said in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives the mark on his forehead or on his hand,
he will in fact drink the wine of God’s undiluted fury poured into the cup of His rage. He will be tormented by fire and sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb.
And the smoke from their tormenting goes up forever and eternally. They have no rest, day or night, those who worship the beast and its image and those who receive the mark of its name.”
This is when perseverance is needed on the part of God’s people, those who observe His commands and exercise Jesus' faithfulness.
Next I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write: ‘How blessed are the dead who die united with the Lord, from now on!’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘now they may rest from their efforts, for the things they have accomplished follow them.’”
Then I looked, and there before me was a white cloud. Seated on the cloud was someone like a Son of Man with a gold crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.
Another angel emerged from the Temple and shouted to the one sitting on the cloud, “Start using your sickle to reap, because the time to reap has arrived... The earth’s harvest is ripe!”
The one sitting on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
Another angel emerged from the Temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.
Then out from the altar went yet another angel, who was in charge of the fire; and he called in a loud voice to the one with the sharp sickle, “Use your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because they are ripe!”
The angel swung his sickle down onto the earth, gathered the earth’s grapes and threw them into God's great winepress of fury.
The winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood gushed from the winepress as high as horses’ bridles for 200 miles!
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And I saw, and lo, a Lamb having stood upon the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;
2 and I heard a voice out of the heaven, as a voice of many waters, and as a voice of great thunder, and a voice I heard of harpers harping with their harps,
3 and they sing, as it were, a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures, and the elders, and no one was able to learn the song except the hundred forty-four thousands, who have been bought from the earth;
4 these are they who with women were not defiled, for they are virgin; these are they who are following the Lamb whithersoever he may go; these were bought from among men -- a first-fruit to God and to the Lamb --
5 and in their mouth there was not found guile, for unblemished are they before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having good news age-during to proclaim to those dwelling upon the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people,
7 saying in a great voice, `Fear ye God, and give to Him glory, because come did the hour of His judgment, and bow ye before Him who did make the heaven, and the land, and sea, and fountains of waters.'
8 And another messenger did follow, saying, `Fall, fall, did Babylon, the great city, because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom she hath given to all nations to drink.'
9 And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
12 Here is endurance of the saints: here [are] those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.'
13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!'
14 And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;
15 and another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary crying in a great voice to him who is sitting upon the cloud, `Send forth thy sickle and reap, because come to thee hath the hour of reaping, because ripe hath been the harvest of the earth;'
16 and he who is sitting upon the cloud did put forth his sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped.
17 And another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary that [is] in the heaven, having -- he also -- a sharp sickle,
18 and another messenger did come forth out from the altar, having authority over the fire, and he called with a great cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, `Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because come to perfection have her grapes;'
19 and the messenger did put forth his sickle to the earth, and did gather the vine of the earth, and did cast [it] to the great wine-press of the wrath of God;
20 and trodden was the wine-press outside of the city, and blood did come forth out of the wine-press -- unto the bridles of the horses, a thousand, six hundred furlongs.
LittleNipper wrote:So, you don't know why man exists, what the difference between good and bad is, and you offer no hope for the dying. You chalk up the steady increase of earthquakes, growing intensity of tornadoes & hurricanes, and horrific shootings to nothing but ecological rhetoric and propaganda.
Man exists because he is part of the natural order of life which has existed on this planet for billions of years.
I know the difference between good and bad. Give me a situation and I can tell you. I don't have to rely on a book with over six hundred different commandments in it that has been demonstrated to be full of factual errors and forgeries. Biblical morality is often horrific and obscene. Abraham and Lot should have been locked up as criminals. Moses should have been prosecuted for violent crimes. And so on.
I offer no hope for the dying? This is what it comes down to, Nipper. Your religion is based on fear. Fear of death. Fear of nothingness or fear of hell. These are things that you have learned to imagine and torment yourself with. "Hell" is a fiction of many religions to coerce people. Nothingness is something you will never experience, so you will never know a moment when you are not alive. That's even better than eternal life. If you cannot bear reality, the human condition, you may well clutch any fantasy to you to shield you from that. That is where your intelligence and integrity might come in, but most likely you will default to the traditions of those familiar to you. If you cling to a Jack Chick fantasy of divine sadism, you are welcome to it and I hope it weighs heavily on you.
Oh, you see in natural phenomena of a dynamic planet some indication of divine intervention? If you sort through enough noise you can connect some dots into some sort of pattern, but you're practicing something like divination. You aren't bothering to study those natural processes and so all of your opinions regarding them are founded in scientific ignorance and magical thinking. But I think that's what we've come to expect from you, isn't it?
LittleNipper wrote:The reality is that evolutionists are scared because what they proposed would take millions of years is suddenly happening in quick order --- in other words, Creation and the Flood are even more likely than they would care to imagine --- given that they ignore GOD.
Did you get this from a pamphlet at the Ark Park?
Or from your Patriot Bible warehouse in the desert diploma mill for Christian crackpots?
Maksutov wrote: I don't have to rely on a book with over six hundred different commandments in it that has been demonstrated to be full of factual errors and forgeries.
more than 2/3 of them begin as "not to..." or "must not..."
613...
613 is one of the most famous Jewish numbers, representing all the commandments of the Torah. How many can you name?
2 (two): 70 Men must not wear women's clothing Deut. 22:5 71 Women must not wear men's clothing Deut. 22:5 --- there are no definitions of women's clothing or men's clothing
plus 3: 265 Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni grains outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17 266 Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni wine products outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17 267 Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni oil outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17 --- got it?
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968. Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.
LittleNipper wrote:The reality is that evolutionists are scared because what they proposed would take millions of years is suddenly happening in quick order --- in other words, Creation and the Flood are even more likely than they would care to imagine --- given that they ignore GOD.
Did you get this from a pamphlet at the Ark Park?
Or from your Patriot Bible warehouse in the desert diploma mill for Christian crackpots?
You seem a very superficial sort of person. Your proof of truth seems to be in the packaging instead of the heart. Had the institution appeared as the Vatican, would you then be pointing out how they waste money! You jump from one contrivance to another. What you lack in spirituality you try to overcome with tenacity. Well, they have built an ARK. I don't suppose that you will print pictures of that? Did you know that Lincoln didn't have a degree from any university or college. I guess that makes him a pretty worthless individual to your way of thinking... Of course there are Christian universities and colleges presently --- but I suppose that they count as nothing to you. They don't fully accept what you believe. You believe in "NATURAL ORDER"! that is your god. I see no proof of "natural" order. I see disorder and the steady ruination of this planet. From a logical standpoint, I see no relative reason nature would bring about humanity to tear it apart! And yet this is your logic, your god, you hope, ultimately!
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then I saw an additional sign in heaven, a great and wonderful one — 7 angels having 7 plagues that are the final ones; because with them, God’s fury reaches its climax.
I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire. Those defeating the beast, its image and the number of its name were standing by the sea of glass, holding harps which God had provided to them.
They were singing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb: “Great and wonderful are the things you have accomplished, Lord, God of heaven’s armies! Just and true are your ways --- King of the nations!
Lord, who will not regard and glorify Your name? This is because You alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous deeds have been revealed.”
Following this I observed, and the sanctuary (that is, the Tent of Witness in heaven) was opened.
And out of the sanctuary came the 7 angels with 7 plagues. They were dressed in clean bright linen and had gold belts around their chests.
One of the 4 living beings handed the 7 angels 7 gold bowls filled with God's fury, who lives forever and eternally.
Then the sanctuary was filled with smoke from God’s Glory, that is, from His might; and no one could enter the sanctuary until the 7 plagues of the 7 angels had accomplished their purpose.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and wonderful, seven messengers having the seven last plagues, because in these was completed the wrath of God,
2 and I saw as a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who do gain the victory over the beast, and his image, and his mark, [and] the number of his name, standing by the sea of the glass, having harps of God,
3 and they sing the song of Moses, servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, `Great and wonderful [are] Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty, righteous and true [are] Thy ways, O King of saints,
4 who may not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? because Thou alone [art] kind, because all the nations shall come and bow before Thee, because Thy righteous acts were manifested.'
5 And after these things I saw, and lo, opened was the sanctuary of the tabernacle of the testimony in the heaven;
6 and come forth did the seven messengers having the seven plagues, out of the sanctuary, clothed in linen, pure and shining, and girded round the breasts with golden girdles:
7 and one of the four living creatures did give to the seven messengers seven golden vials, full of the wrath of God, who is living to the ages of the ages;
8 and filled was the sanctuary with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power, and no one was able to enter into the sanctuary till the seven plagues of the seven messengers may be finished.
I heard a loud voice from the sanctuary say to the 7 angels, “Go, and pour out on the earth the 7 bowls of God’s fury!”
The 1st one went and poured his bowl onto the earth, and disgusting and painful sores appeared on all the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.
The 2nd one poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became like a corpse's blood, and every living thing in the sea died.
The 3rd one poured out his bowl into the rivers and springs of water, and they turned to blood.
Then I heard the angel of the waters say, “Oh Righteous, the One who is and was, you are just in these judgments of yours.
They spilled the blood of your people and your prophets, so you have made them drink blood. They deserve it!”
Then I heard the altar say, “Yes, Lord, God of heaven’s armies, your judgments are true and just!”
The 4th one poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was permitted to scorch people with fire.
People were burned by the intense heat; yet they cursed the name of God, who had the authority over these plagues, instead of turning from their sins to give him glory.
The 5th one poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom grew dark. People bit their tongues from the pain.
Still, they cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and sores, and did not turn from their sinful ways.
The 6th one poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water dried up, in order to prepare the way for the rulers from the east.
And I witnessed 3 unclean spirits that looked like frogs; they came from the dragon's mouth, from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet.
They are miracle-working demonic spirits which go out to the kings of the whole inhabited planet to assemble them for the War of the Great Day of Lord God Almighty.
(“See! I am coming like a thief! How blessed are those who stay alert and keep their apparel clean, so that they won’t be walking naked and be publicly shamed!”)
And they gathered the rulers to the place which in Hebrew is called Har Megiddo/Armageddon.
The 7th one poured out his bowl on the air, and a loud voice was emitted from the Temple from the throne, saying, “It is done!”
There were flashes of lightning, voices and thunderclaps; and there was a massive earthquake, such as has never occurred since mankind has existed on earth, so violent was the earthquake.
The great city was split into 3 sections, the cities of the nations collapsed, and God remembered Babylon the Great and made her drink the wine from the cup of His raging fury.
Every island disappeared, and the mountains were gone.
And huge 70-pound hailstones pummeled the people from the sky. But the people cursed God for the plague of hail, that it was such a horrible plague.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And I heard a great voice out of the sanctuary saying to the seven messengers, `Go away, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God to the earth;'
2 and the first did go away, and did pour out his vial upon the land, and there came a sore -- bad and grievous -- to men, those having the mark of the beast, and those bowing to his image.
3 And the second messenger did pour out his vial to the sea, and there came blood as of [one] dead, and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third messenger did pour out his vial to the rivers, and to the fountains of the waters, and there came blood,
5 and I heard the messenger of the waters, saying, `righteous, O Lord, art Thou, who art, and who wast, and who shalt be, because these things Thou didst judge,
6 because blood of saints and prophets they did pour out, and blood to them Thou didst give to drink, for they are worthy;'
7 and I heard another out of the altar, saying, `Yes, Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous [are] Thy judgments.'
8 And the fourth messenger did pour out his vial upon the sun, and there was given to him to scorch men with fire,
9 and men were scorched with great heat, and they did speak evil of the name of God, who hath authority over these plagues, and they did not reform -- to give to Him glory.
10 And the fifth messenger did pour out his vial upon the throne of the beast, and his kingdom did become darkened, and they were gnawing their tongues from the pain,
11 and they did speak evil of the God of the heaven, from their pains, and from their sores, and they did not reform from their works.
12 And the sixth messenger did pour out his vial upon the great river, the Euphrates, and dried up was its water, that the way of the kings who are from the rising of the sun may be made ready;
13 and I saw [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs --
14 for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty; --
15 `lo, I do come as a thief; happy [is] he who is watching, and keeping his garments, that he may not walk naked, and they may see his unseemliness,' --
16 and they did bring them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon.
17 And the seventh messenger did pour out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, `It hath come!'
18 and there came voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and a great earthquake came, such as came not since men came upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake -- so great!
19 And it came -- the great city -- into three parts, and the cities of the nations did fall, and Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the wrath of His anger,
20 and every island did flee away, and mountains were not found,
21 and great hail (as of talent weight) doth come down out of the heaven upon men, and men did speak evil of God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague is very great.
Maksutov wrote:Did you get this from a pamphlet at the Ark Park?
Or from your Patriot Bible warehouse in the desert diploma mill for Christian crackpots?
You seem a very superficial sort of person. Your proof of truth seems to be in the packaging instead of the heart. You jump from one contrivance to another. What you lack in spirituality you try to overcome with tenacity. Well, they have built an ARK. I don't suppose that you will print pictures of that? Did you know that Lincoln didn't have a degree from any university or college. I guess that makes him a pretty worthless individual to your way of thinking... Of course there are Christian universities and colleges presently --- but I suppose that they count as nothing to you. They don't fully accept what you believe. You believe in "NATURAL ORDER"! that is your god. I see no proof of "natural" order. I see disorder and the steady ruination of this planet. From a logical standpoint, I see no relative reason nature would bring about humanity to tear it apart? And yet this is your logic, ultimately!
So many errors in your post. Yes, there is a natural order. Unfortunately, the understanding of it that has been extensively documented and developed over the last several hundred years is lost on you because it isn't in your bundle of Bronze Age fables. I'm a superficial person? I'm a person trying to grapple with the lessons of the past that people have given their lives for. You're the ungrateful amnesiac who belittles scientists while writing on a network designed by them. You defend mail order fantasies masquerading as education and promoted by convicted felons like Kent Hovind. You cling to a fantasy of a massive boat that could hold representative samples of millions of species and transport them and keep them alive and from destroying eachother, to land on a mountain top and disperse them all over the globe from there. It's up there with Santa visiting all the chimneys on Christmas eve, it's on par with Easter Bunnies and Tooth Fairies and goblins and all the dramas of childhood. It's quite remarkable to see so many alleged adults who maintain a massive part of their lives in an infantile state. I don't think it's a character flaw, I think it's a toxic subculture that lives parasitically off of healthier greater societies. It's not to your credit that you seek to perpetuate it.
The Bible can be a body of literature that can be understood in historical and scientific perspective but more often it has been weaponized for intracultural advantage. I won't honor that, any more than I will respect cultic approaches to the Bible, the Q'ran, the Urantia Book or The Origin of Species.
LittleNipper wrote:You seem a very superficial sort of person. Your proof of truth seems to be in the packaging instead of the heart. You jump from one contrivance to another. What you lack in spirituality you try to overcome with tenacity. Well, they have built an ARK. I don't suppose that you will print pictures of that? Did you know that Lincoln didn't have a degree from any university or college. I guess that makes him a pretty worthless individual to your way of thinking... Of course there are Christian universities and colleges presently --- but I suppose that they count as nothing to you. They don't fully accept what you believe. You believe in "NATURAL ORDER"! that is your god. I see no proof of "natural" order. I see disorder and the steady ruination of this planet. From a logical standpoint, I see no relative reason nature would bring about humanity to tear it apart? And yet this is your logic, ultimately!
So many errors in your post. Yes, there is a natural order. Unfortunately, the understanding of it that has been extensively documented and developed over the last several hundred years is lost on you because it isn't in your bundle of Bronze Age fables. I'm a superficial person? I'm a person trying to grapple with the lessons of the past that people have given their lives for. You're the ungrateful amnesiac who belittles scientists while writing on a network designed by them. You defend mail order fantasies masquerading as education and promoted by convicted felons like Kent Hovind. You cling to a fantasy of a massive boat that could hold representative samples of millions of species and transport them and keep them alive and from destroying eachother, to land on a mountain top and disperse them all over the globe from there. It's up there with Santa visiting all the chimneys on Christmas eve, it's on par with Easter Bunnies and Tooth Fairies and goblins and all the dramas of childhood. It's quite remarkable to see so many alleged adults who maintain a massive part of their lives in an infantile state. I don't think it's a character flaw, I think it's a toxic subculture that lives parasitically off of healthier greater societies. It's not to your credit that you seek to perpetuate it.
The Bible can be a body of literature that can be understood in historical and scientific perspective but more often it has been weaponized for intracultural advantage. I won't honor that, any more than I will respect cultic approaches to the Bible, the Q'ran, the Urantia Book or The Origin of Species.
Someday soon you will die and after that comes judgement. As you grow old you will see how time seems so fleeting, and you will find no comfort from your works. I point to the manger and you and your sort points to Santa. I point to the cross and you the Easter Bunny. I point to eternity and you point to fairies, aliens, and zombies. I point to the savior and you are trying to save yourself. I would suggest the you are infantile when one weighs your standards against those of the LORD.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
