Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:46 am
DrW,
You make excellent points as well. I'm sure that very few, if any, active participants are ever swayed by a discussion. Yet I'm sure many lurkers have been on both sides. I think many people are first exposed to problems with the faith through the boards.
Perhaps this is a good time to turn this tangent back to the OP, then.
Personally, I think the use of the Kinderhook Plates fairs poorly by themselves when used as evidence against Joseph Smith's abilities as a seer. This is because I do not think, by itself, the Kinderhook Plates make the argument clear to a person who was not already convinced of Joseph Smith's fraudulent behaviour.
If a person were to ask me why I do not think Joseph Smith was able to translate ancient documents, my first choice would be to point to the PoGP and the facsimiles. in my opinion, the Book of Abraham contains a self-guided tour of just how off Joseph was in his claim to be able to translate the papyri. When this argument comes up, not may apologists stand up, saying "Don't worry, I've got this one." An interesting attempt can be found here, which illustrates how difficult the task is.
The KP are, again in my opinion, best presented as additional information. The weight of the argument from the Book of Abraham, when combined with the question of what Joseph Smith presented by way of translation of the KP, and issues with Book of Mormon geography and archeology form a much stronger argument than the KP possibly can by themselves. In fact, I think attempts to use the KP by themselves can have the unfortunate opposite effect of strengthening a person's beliefs. Similar to how a weak dose of antibiotics can breed resistance in bacteria.
Following the release of Don's paper, I think another question that could be of concern to believers is the attitude of Joseph Smith in relation to his reliance on God. If one considers that the official revelation on polygamy arose the same year we see Joseph Smith attempting a secular translation of a hoax with the perspective of our modern views on polygamy, the bold claims he made of being greater than even Jesus in keeping his church together, the military parades...perhaps this will become another piece in a broader argument regarding Joseph Smith's self-aggrandizement? I think we'll have to wait and see on that.
You make excellent points as well. I'm sure that very few, if any, active participants are ever swayed by a discussion. Yet I'm sure many lurkers have been on both sides. I think many people are first exposed to problems with the faith through the boards.
Perhaps this is a good time to turn this tangent back to the OP, then.
Personally, I think the use of the Kinderhook Plates fairs poorly by themselves when used as evidence against Joseph Smith's abilities as a seer. This is because I do not think, by itself, the Kinderhook Plates make the argument clear to a person who was not already convinced of Joseph Smith's fraudulent behaviour.
If a person were to ask me why I do not think Joseph Smith was able to translate ancient documents, my first choice would be to point to the PoGP and the facsimiles. in my opinion, the Book of Abraham contains a self-guided tour of just how off Joseph was in his claim to be able to translate the papyri. When this argument comes up, not may apologists stand up, saying "Don't worry, I've got this one." An interesting attempt can be found here, which illustrates how difficult the task is.
The KP are, again in my opinion, best presented as additional information. The weight of the argument from the Book of Abraham, when combined with the question of what Joseph Smith presented by way of translation of the KP, and issues with Book of Mormon geography and archeology form a much stronger argument than the KP possibly can by themselves. In fact, I think attempts to use the KP by themselves can have the unfortunate opposite effect of strengthening a person's beliefs. Similar to how a weak dose of antibiotics can breed resistance in bacteria.
Following the release of Don's paper, I think another question that could be of concern to believers is the attitude of Joseph Smith in relation to his reliance on God. If one considers that the official revelation on polygamy arose the same year we see Joseph Smith attempting a secular translation of a hoax with the perspective of our modern views on polygamy, the bold claims he made of being greater than even Jesus in keeping his church together, the military parades...perhaps this will become another piece in a broader argument regarding Joseph Smith's self-aggrandizement? I think we'll have to wait and see on that.