Man is as intelligent as God

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_Franktalk
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Re: Man is as intelligent as God

Post by _Franktalk »

Gadianton wrote:...... But you were wrong, because it's the leaders of the Church, including Joseph Smith, who interpret spirits as actual physical entities.


Spirits are unseen unless they change to become visible in the physical universe. That is what I have been talking about. If the beings that occupy the other realms have physical bodies in that realm then we would need eyes in that realm to see them. The definition of physical for each realm, heaven, or dimension can be so different as to render our definition meaningless.

Now do you have a detailed scientific analysis of a spirit? If not then your post is for argument sake.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Man is as intelligent as God

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Franktalk wrote:So tell me, has science found this more refined matter? Post a picture of it.


Frank Talk,

Can you see the refined matter that makes up the air?

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Gadianton
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Re: Man is as intelligent as God

Post by _Gadianton »

Franktalk wrote:
Spirits are unseen unless they change to become visible in the physical universe. That is what I have been talking about. If the beings that occupy the other realms have physical bodies in that realm then we would need eyes in that realm to see them. The definition of physical for each realm, heaven, or dimension can be so different as to render our definition meaningless.

Now do you have a detailed scientific analysis of a spirit? If not then your post is for argument sake.


Why would I? I gave you John Widstoe's detailed scientific analysis. He was an apostle, a special witness, I'm not. This is what I'm trying to tell you: if you want to make up your own weird-ass mysticism, go right ahead; if you can present it coherently, I may even try to discuss it. But I have no reason at all to believe anything you say represents the Mormon position. I presented you with what I believe is the most detailed and authorative description you'll ever find of what a spirit is in Mormonism. And you seem to have no interest in reading about it.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_DrW
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Re: Man is as intelligent as God

Post by _DrW »

When trying to have a discussion with Tobin or Franktalk, it is important to remember that they are magical thinkers. They have no regard for natural law and apparently no understanding or appreciation of the physical constraints represented by natural law.

They believe that anything that can be imagined can be made true by magic. They call this magic "the power of God". Yet they cannot define it and have no objective reproducible physical evidence for it, whatsoever.

Their thought processes are holdovers from the time of the demon haunted world, when humans who did not know better would sit around a community fire at night and make up stories to try to explain natural phenomenon that they did not understand. These stories were borne out of superstition and ignorance, just like those of Joseph Smith.

This kind of thinking is still rampant among many religionists. It is illogical, undisciplined, and unproductive. In a world where facts really do matter, it can be dangerous.

So, if one feels inclined to engage the likes of Tobin, Franktalk, subgenius, lsdfaqs, why me, and bcspace in discussion of religion wherein any shred of logic or science is involved, one should realize that it is, or at least has always been so far, pretty much a waste of time in terms of trying to bring understanding or logic in such matters (especially to Tobin and Franktalk).

Those who engage in these discussions (myself included) should realize that the only minds that are going to be influenced are those of lurkers, doubters or investigators who drop in to get a sense of how faithful Mormons deal with the real world and the hard questions about their weird, man made, 19th century beliefs.

Anyone dropping in on this thread, for example, will be exposed to a number of bizarre and demonstrably false statements by Joseph Smith followed by an even more bizarre, incoherent, and internally inconsistent attempts to defend these beliefs.

Tobin and Franktalk, if you think I am kidding, just go back and read this thread again. Then imagine having a conversation with the non-LDS person sitting next to you on an airplane wherein you tried to convince them that what Joseph Smith said is true, and that it is true for the reasons you have presented here. You would have about as much of a chance of success as a newly converted Scientologist describing the Galactic Lord Xenu and the Space Opera.

At least a Scientologist could claim that their BS must be true because Tom Cruise and John Travolta believed it.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Mittens
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Re: Man is as intelligent as God

Post by _Mittens »

You forgot Greta Van Susteren at Fox news
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_DrW
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Re: Man is as intelligent as God

Post by _DrW »

Mittens wrote:You forgot Greta Van Susteren at Fox news

So I did. :biggrin:
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Franktalk
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Re: Man is as intelligent as God

Post by _Franktalk »

DrW,

If you love the physical universe and believe there is nothing more than what science detects that is your choice. I happen to choose another world view. One that is rich in purpose and eternal in growth. But your view in which all things are ruled by chance and an unfolding of natural laws is pretty meaningless. I guess that is why you make the best of your short life, which in your eyes ceases to exist soon, by coming to a website to post about your love of all things of man. I mean is this the best you can do? Maybe you enjoy this more than traveling, or fishing, or writing all of your wisdom down for future generations to admire your wisdom and intellect. So if you get off by walking on others I have to wonder just makes you tick?
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Man is as intelligent as God

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Franktalk wrote:DrW,

If you love the physical universe and believe there is nothing more than what science detects that is your choice. I happen to choose another world view. One that is rich in purpose and eternal in growth. But your view in which all things are ruled by chance and an unfolding of natural laws is pretty meaningless. I guess that is why you make the best of your short life, which in your eyes ceases to exist soon, by coming to a website to post about your love of all things of man. I mean is this the best you can do? Maybe you enjoy this more than traveling, or fishing, or writing all of your wisdom down for future generations to admire your wisdom and intellect. So if you get off by walking on others I have to wonder just makes you tick?


You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about Dr. W, and in fact, it appears you're projecting your own insecurities onto this man.

Why don't you please answer my question?

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_DrW
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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Man is as intelligent as God

Post by _DrW »

Franktalk wrote:DrW,

If you love the physical universe and believe there is nothing more than what science detects that is your choice. I happen to choose another world view. One that is rich in purpose and eternal in growth. But your view in which all things are ruled by chance and an unfolding of natural laws is pretty meaningless. I guess that is why you make the best of your short life, which in your eyes ceases to exist soon, by coming to a website to post about your love of all things of man. I mean is this the best you can do? Maybe you enjoy this more than traveling, or fishing, or writing all of your wisdom down for future generations to admire your wisdom and intellect. So if you get off by walking on others I have to wonder just makes you tick?

Franktalk,

Here is the problem with your magical worldview: it is indistinguishable in its form and main features from that of other theisms, including mainstream Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. It is a worldview that is manufactured by humans based on what they do not know rather than what they do know. Since it is highly arbitrary and variable (as reflected in the thousands of religions that humankind has invented through time) it represents a major stumbling block to the progress of society.

This kind of worldview promotes magic-based thought processes that prompt (or at least allow) humans to engage in such God-sanctioned activities as the inquisition, burning of witches at the stake, killing of innocents through suicide bombings, honor killings of females, etc. According to the Mormon version of these thousands of disparate religions, pretty much anything that causes one's bosoms to burn can be acted upon with a clear conscience.

The moral compass represented by a "burning in the bosom" is notoriously unreliable. In Joseph Smith's case, for example, his moral compass led him to justify adultery, polyandry, polygamy, bank fraud, falsely claiming the ability to translate ancient writings, lying to the public and to his congregation, and ultimately to his untimely death in a sordid jailhouse gun battle.

Given the choice between experiencing the world in a well-lived life in which one contributes to society in meaningful ways, and living a life of superstition and fear of some imaginary God in exchange for the conditional promise of some ill-defined (and physically impossible) afterlife, as imagined by men who claim to talk with this imaginary God, I know what my choice would be (and is).

As to your suggestion that I write and publish some of what I have learned from life on this Earth; I have done just that in the form of technical books, papers and patents (and continue to do so).
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_ludwigm
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Re: Man is as intelligent as God

Post by _ludwigm »

DrW wrote:As to your suggestion that I write and publish some of what I have learned from life on this Earth; I have done just that in the form of technical books, papers and patents (and continue to do so).
... and that books and papers someway different than sacred scriptures;
they works - without prayers, burning in the bosom or lying the unverifiable "god said me that".
That books and papers describe the real world.

They can be checked, the procedures can be repeated - and the "perpetrators" can be praised or amerced, as our servants, not of different gods.

by the way I did something similar. I used to teach soldiers.
No, I didn't teach war. It was anti-aircraft defense. Unnecessary without assaulters.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
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