WHO or WHICH is most important?

[LittleNipper]

Psalm 22 Predicted the way Christ was to be Crucified and tormented
For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

[Shulem]

Psalm 22 Predicted the way Christ was to be Crucified and tormented...

No, he did not. He knew nothing about the man Jesus who would be born a thousand years into the future. Nothing!

David was a murderer. David was a womanizer.

Psalms 22 was hijacked by the Christian religion being twisted and distorted into a classical mess to satisfy the needs and faith of Christians who still, to this day, await the coming of their imaginary Lord.

YOU, LittleNipper, will not see the Second Coming. I can assure you that.

[LittleNipper]

Psalm 22 Predicted the way Christ was to be Crucified and tormented...

No, he did not. He knew nothing about the man Jesus who would be born a thousand years into the future. Nothing!

David was a murderer. David was a womanizer.

Psalms 22 was hijacked by the Christian religion being twisted and distorted into a classical mess to satisfy the needs and faith of Christians who still, to this day, await the coming of their imaginary Lord.

YOU, LittleNipper, will not see the Second Coming. I can assure you that.

Well of course David didn't know entirely what he was writing ---- he was inspired by GOD through the HOLY SPIRIT. That's the way with prophecy. David was forgiven, and if David could be forgiven, anyone by GOD can be forgiven. HOWEVER, one must realize their failure and be willing ask for forgiveness.

[bill4long]

Psalm 22 Predicted the way Christ was to be Crucified and tormented

Well, no it doesn't just because you make a claim. You have to demonstrate that with evidence. And merely citing New Testament authors is not evidence, because obviously they had the text of Psalm 22 available to them. Moreover, the text many obviously metaphorical elements and could just as easily be applied to a lot of persecutions, including the Holocaust.

I noticed you didn't answer my questions, so I'll ask again:

1. Why is the subject asking God to "save my soul from the sword"? (v 21). How does this apply to Jesus?

2. The subject says, "My God, I call out by day and You do not reply, and at night I do not keep silent." (v 3). How does this apply to Jesus?

Mind you, both of these occur after the statement about being "forsaken" in verse 2. (Cf Mark 15:34 right before Jesus is said to have died.)

The details belie any sort of clean fit with the crucifixion narrative.

[Limnor]

Just to be clear: you're saying the torture was not essential to the atonement?
…
At any rate, what you seem to be claiming is that the Horrific Gruesome Ordeal added nothing to the actual "payment for human sin" but was merely a sign to link him to Isaiah 53 etc for identification purposes? Do I have that right?

I wouldn’t say the suffering added nothing, I’d say it was not described as part of the Levitical sacrifice. Leviticus gives us death and blood, and the scapegoat is seen as distinct from the sacrifice—the two goats you mention. But both describe the model that Jesus would follow. Separately, Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 give us the rejected righteous sufferer. The Christian interpretation is those themes—among others—converge in Jesus as the Messiah.

Whether that interpretation is persuasive to you is a different question. Im just describing that interpretation, not demanding that you accept it.

[Shulem]

Psalm 22 Predicted the way Christ was to be Crucified and tormented

Well, no it doesn't just because you make a claim. You have to demonstrate that with evidence. And merely citing New Testament authors is not evidence, because obviously they had the text of Psalm 22 available to them. Moreover, the text many obviously metaphorical elements and could just as easily be applied to a lot of persecutions, including the Holocaust.

I noticed you didn't answer my questions, so I'll ask again:

1. Why is the subject asking God to "save my soul from the sword"? (v 21). How does this apply to Jesus?

2. The subject says, "My God, I call out by day and You do not reply, and at night I do not keep silent." (v 3). How does this apply to Jesus?

Mind you, both of these occur after the statement about being "forsaken" in verse 2. (Cf Mark 15:34 right before Jesus is said to have died.)

The details belie any sort of clean fit with the crucifixion narrative.

Thank you for that!

The early Christian writers stole David’s woes and likened them to a suffering Jesus in an attempt to associate those sayings© to the crucifixion a thousand years into the future! It’s a form of piracy -- thievery of a man’s sacred prayers. It’s not about the crucifixion and death of futuristic Jesus but concerns David who begs God to save him from the sword and spare his life. It has nothing to do with Jesus’s sacrifice! Further, David’s supplications and sufferings continued into the night hours which contradicts Christ’s death on the cross at 3PM.

So, the idea that the Holy Spirit® is prophesying through David is a complete no-go.

[Shulem]

...The Christian interpretation is those themes—among others—converge in Jesus as the Messiah.

Yes, it was branded religious™ interpretation and the reinvention of concepts in order to make them fit a new narrative. Hence the birth of Christianity used Old Testament concepts to fit into the New Testament religion.

Joseph Smith took it to a higher level in which Book of Mormon© prophets graphically and clearly described the crucifixion and predicted the actual date it would occur! They were seers (see-ers), thus they *saw* the future and described it perfectly.

On the other hand, Old Testament verses said to symbolize Christ are convoluted and watered down versions compared to Book of Mormon prophecies which are far superior and define events with exactness. Now you will agree that’s ironic. Ha ha.

[LittleNipper]

Psalm 22 Predicted the way Christ was to be Crucified and tormented

Well, no it doesn't just because you make a claim. You have to demonstrate that with evidence. And merely citing New Testament authors is not evidence, because obviously they had the text of Psalm 22 available to them. Moreover, the text many obviously metaphorical elements and could just as easily be applied to a lot of persecutions, including the Holocaust.

I noticed you didn't answer my questions, so I'll ask again:

1. Why is the subject asking God to "save my soul from the sword"? (v 21). How does this apply to Jesus?

In Psalm 22:20-21, the psalmist pleads for God to deliver his life from violent destruction, with the "sword" and various beasts are metaphorical for imminent, brutal death at the hands of one's enemies. And clearly Jesus (even though the GOD in the flesh) wasn't looking forward to being tormented hurt, and separated from the FATHER for the only time in HIS history.

[/quote]

2. The subject says, "My God, I call out by day and You do not reply, and at night I do not keep silent." (v 3). How does this apply to Jesus?
Mind you, both of these occur after the statement about being "forsaken" in verse 2. (Cf Mark 15:34 right before Jesus is said to have died.)
The details belie any sort of clean fit with the crucifixion narrative.

[/quote]

The FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT abhor sin and cannot look upon it. Jesus being all man and yet all GOD had a different construct. HE had a human body. When Jesus went to the cross willingly (though not looking forward to the suffering) HE allowed HIMSELF to be Crucified. Man couldn't have accomplished it without Christ allowing this to occur. The night of HIS capture before HIS crucifixion HE willingly spilled HIS guts out to HIS FATHER concerning HIS apprehension of what was going to happen to HIM...

[Shulem]

In Psalm 22:20-21, the psalmist pleads for God to deliver his life from violent destruction, with the "sword" and various beasts are metaphorical for imminent, brutal death at the hands of one's enemies. And clearly Jesus (even though the GOD in the flesh) wasn't looking forward to being tormented hurt, and separated from the FATHER for the only time in HIS history.

1) Deliver his life: Life is spared and death is thwarted. This applies to King David, NOT to Jesus!
2) Metaphorical: Religionists love to twist and distort a comparison between two entirely different things.

King David begs God to spare his life from all forms of death so that he may continue his administration as King of Israel:

22:20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
22:21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

David was delivered and rescued and lived to the ripe age of 70.

End of story.

[bill4long]

Joseph Smith took it to a higher level in which Book of Mormon© prophets graphically and clearly described the crucifixion and predicted the actual date it would occur! They were seers (see-ers), thus they *saw* the future and described it perfectly.

On the other hand, Old Testament verses said to symbolize Christ are convoluted and watered down versions compared to Book of Mormon prophecies which are far superior and define events with exactness. Now you will agree that’s ironic. Ha ha.

Prophecy after-the-fact is simply amazing.