Science is a tool that can be abused!

[_spotlight]

Let us just say for a moment that I am right about the inward journey. Let us say that if we take the journey with idols in our heart then we get mirrored back our idols. Now let us say that everything around us can be interpreted a number of ways. It could also be designed a number of ways. What if the way it is designed is similar to the Bible? Can it be that nature around us can be interpreted in such a way that it is a stumbling block? Was enough wiggle room designed into what we see around us to stumble on?

You see in my belief system we are the designers. We are not fooling another we are fooling ourselves. So if we design in a way to interpret life as self made then it adds to the realism of the game. But we don't lie. There must be enough real truth available to uncover what is true. But that path is not the way that science uses. So truth remains hidden. It is not a lie, it is just that we know how our avatars think.

I'm not going to dig around to find your post on this but you said formerly that the first thing you learned on your quest for truth was that the universe is real or In other words we are not existing inside a simulation.

If the universe is real it exists apart from input from designers. That is a very big constraint on designers who might wish to rearrange things through terraforming and creating lifeforms. For instance where you said "Let us assume that everything around us can be interpreted a number of ways." Well it can't, and remain consistent. If we were inside the matrix then there would be no requirement for consistency but you said the universe is real which requires consistency.

[_spotlight]

I have described the inward path to you. You refuse to take it.

No, I am willing to take it and report back. But I don't experience anything when I take it Frank. Sorry.

[_spotlight]

Even assuming we are inside a matrix there are ways to prove that can't be the correct paradigm.

All you have to do is get drunk. The alcohol is only simulated and can't really affect anything and yet our eternal selves get drunk and become uninhibited. That is enough to show that we are not in a matrix.

[_huckelberry]

evolution?
There is the alternative theory proposed by Christians locked into Biblical inerrancy that God made the world as if evolution and great time had already happen. He was in a hurry so just skipped letting all the time before Adam actually happen. That prior time is just an idea in Gods mind which he used to determine all the different kinds of rocks fossils mountains etc etc. which we find.

I am not sure if Franktalk has any interest in that theory but it arrived by a similar evidence free path, one of which he might approve.

Though for those who like odd puzzles, it might be interesting to distinguish events for the world which exist in Gods mind as part of creation from events that actually happened. For most theists what is in Gods mind is the thing most real. (no?)

The only problem with this idea of creation with age is the fact that our DNA which determines what we are just happens to agree with the arrangement that looks as if we share a common ancestor. That is a big pill to swallow.

spotlight, for the theory to have any weight at all it must propose that at creation all things were shaped in complete accordance to a past that had a complete pattern of event and result so that the result would continue to seemlessly function in real time. This would include dna and all other evidence for evolution not just the simple things like water needs canyons to flow down and not create a big mess.

That is why i brought up the question about the reality of that conceptual past. It is absolutely complete not just a throw together stage set.

One of the things I find a bit curious is that people who hold this idea find it very difficult to resist the temptation of switching back to find more things which they can claim resulted from historical events. People propose all the sedimentary rock resulted from Noah flood moving the earths order back into the results of historical events.This backtracking is done despite no scriptural justification and the utter absurdity of mass sudden chaos(a flood breaking up the entire crust of the earth) producing the elaborately ordered affair of sedimentary rocks we find on earth. It would be much clearer to say Noahs flood did not change any rocks anywhere. The water was created from nothing by Gods power and was returned to nothing. But the same people insisting on Gods omnipotence steer away from that in favor of an elaborate Rube Goldberg series of cause and effect events about water breaking up the crust etc etc etc just to keep more things in real time and outside of that time existing in Gods mind only.

[_spotlight]

spotlight, for the theory to have any weight at all it must propose that at creation all things were shaped in complete accordance to a past that had a complete pattern of event and result so that the result would continue to seemlessly function in real time. This would include dna and all other evidence for evolution not just the simple things like water needs canyons to flow down and not create a big mess.

That is why i brought up the question about the reality of that conceptual past. It is absolutely complete not just a throw together stage set.

One of the things I find a bit curious is that people who hold this idea find it very difficult to resist the temptation of switching back to find more things which they can claim resulted from historical events. People propose all the sedimentary rock resulted from Noah flood moving the earths order back into the results of historical events.This backtracking is done despite no scriptural justification and the utter absurdity of mass sudden chaos(a flood breaking up the entire crust of the earth) producing the elaborately ordered affair of sedimentary rocks we find on earth. It would be much clearer to say Noahs flood did not change any rocks anywhere. The water was created from nothing by Gods power and was returned to nothing. But the same people insisting on Gods omnipotence steer away from that in favor of an elaborate Rube Goldberg series of cause and effect events about water breaking up the crust etc etc etc just to keep more things in real time and outside of that time existing in Gods mind only.

Yes, they deal with problems piecemeal and once they think they address a point they promptly forget how they addressed it. Then later they address another problem with their belief and the solution for this new problem conflicts with the solution for the first problem and none of it works when you try to make a whole model from what they believe. The trouble is they don't attempt to make a whole model, if they did they would be science minded to begin with wouldn't they. So we are dealing with people who feel no need for consistency at all who have a broken method of "thinking."

[_Franktalk]

No, I am willing to take it and report back. But I don't experience anything when I take it Frank. Sorry.

I wish it was that easy. It is not like a ride in an amusement park. For you to go on this journey you must throw away everything you know about science. You must seek truth no matter what it is. Now that is the big one. It is obvious that you can't do that. To let everything go and deny your own existence to find truth.

When I lived in my belief in science I did not think I knew the answer to the hard questions. Who am I? why am I here? What happens when I die? Then when I studied religion it still did not answer those questions. Yes I knew what was taught but it never made sense so I did not embrace it. I wanted to know and was willing to lose everything for the answers.

2 Nephi 2

7 Behold, he offereth himself
a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends
of the law, unto all those who have
a broken heart and a contrite spirit;
and unto none else can the ends
of the law be answered.

It is described as a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Extremely few can ever let go enough to be in this state. Having read your posts here there is no way you could ever let go of what you think you know. You believe you have the answers to the difficult questions. Good for you but thinking that way will never allow the door to open.

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This is symbolic of the inward journey. It is available to everyone. But being available does mean you will do it. At this point I do not think you can. You love what you think you know. Now read Eze 14 and see the symbolism of the inward journey.

Eze 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

So when you try and take the journey you will be bringing in your beliefs. So your beliefs will be reflected back at you. You will feel that what you brought in was verified. Then you will join all of the millions of people who think they had a spiritual experience. It will be so real that you will know that your idols are right and every other idol is wrong. You will deceive yourself.

[_Franktalk]

Even assuming we are inside a matrix there are ways to prove that can't be the correct paradigm.

All you have to do is get drunk. The alcohol is only simulated and can't really affect anything and yet our eternal selves get drunk and become uninhibited. That is enough to show that we are not in a matrix.

Your belief that this is true would stop you from going on an inward journey. You want this to be true. And why are you stuck on simulations?

[_huckelberry]

Franktalk sounds much like he is rehashing some late 60sLSD cult routine. Sure all of that was unorganized so calling it a cult seems a bit uncertain. There were some ideas passed around which could function that way however. Of course franks inner journey could have had another genesis.

So Frank, why do you think you know anything about inner journeys? Are you experienced?

[_spotlight]

Your belief that this is true would stop you from going on an inward journey. You want this to be true. And why are you stuck on simulations?

How can you say this? I told you before that I wanted the LDS theology to be true. That was my motivation for going to a University to begin with. So your tidy little excuse is wrong. And I am not stuck on simulations. You don't understand apparently that your argument depends on a simulation hypothesis to even be a possibility. There is no way any reality can be inconsistent and remain in any sense real. I believe that line of reasoning even exists in the Book of Mormon.

My belief in logic stops me from going on an inward journey? Is that your point? Because if it is you have just admitted that your viewpoint is inconsistent or In other words that it contradicts itself. Is that the price tag to go on this inward journey? If you are in denial of a reality why do you care about the discovery of truth? You aren't making any sense. If your truth is self contradictory then there can't be any truth to discover by inward journeys or otherwise.

[_spotlight]

I wish it was that easy. It is not like a ride in an amusement park. For you to go on this journey you must throw away everything you know about science. You must seek truth no matter what it is. Now that is the big one. It is obvious that you can't do that. To let everything go and deny your own existence to find truth.

When I lived in my belief in science I did not think I knew the answer to the hard questions. Who am I? why am I here? What happens when I die? Then when I studied religion it still did not answer those questions. Yes I knew what was taught but it never made sense so I did not embrace it. I wanted to know and was willing to lose everything for the answers.

2 Nephi 2

7 Behold, he offereth himself
a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends
of the law, unto all those who have
a broken heart and a contrite spirit;
and unto none else can the ends
of the law be answered.

It is described as a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Extremely few can ever let go enough to be in this state. Having read your posts here there is no way you could ever let go of what you think you know. You believe you have the answers to the difficult questions. Good for you but thinking that way will never allow the door to open.

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This is symbolic of the inward journey. It is available to everyone. But being available does mean you will do it. At this point I do not think you can. You love what you think you know. Now read Eze 14 and see the symbolism of the inward journey.

Eze 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

So when you try and take the journey you will be bringing in your beliefs. So your beliefs will be reflected back at you. You will feel that what you brought in was verified. Then you will join all of the millions of people who think they had a spiritual experience. It will be so real that you will know that your idols are right and every other idol is wrong. You will deceive yourself.

So your argument depends upon basically believing it in the first place before you can interpret anything to be evidence for it. How convenient Frank. You have to begin with the conclusion and align the evidence in a way that agrees with your conclusion. Whatever spin is necessary huh? And then if something contradicts your world view anyhow you simply ignore it and perhaps decide that even though it contradicts your world view it is because it was designed that way so that we can exercise our free agency to choose.

Well thanks for admitting that you are completely lost in a solipsistic fantasy that is without evidence. Then you have the hypocrisy to declare that anyone who comes to any conclusion about reality other than the one that you have arrived at is being fed back the idols of their hearts. So you took your journey without any desire I guess? That's odd because wanting to know the truth seems to be a common factor in the search of all people. Is it not just a bit arrogant of you to decide that you alone are sincere in your quest Frank?

Before I asked you for evidence and you said that you had it, just that it was not evidence that I would accept. Then you said that there can be no proof otherwise we lose our agency to choose. So which is it Frank? Evidence or no evidence? You constantly contradict yourself. Is self contradiction a sign of being on the correct path in your world view?