Book of Mormon Geography

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Moksha
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Geography

Post by Moksha »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2025 4:00 pm
I find it amazing how Smith’s secret geography was buried with him, deep in his mind and heart, and hidden away from everyone for all this time until now. The only way to figure it out was to think outside the testimony box and from the perspective of the whole thing being a hoax -- pure fiction. Even now days after revealing the con here on this board, people are still blinded by the game Smith played. Mormonism plays a number on the mind. It's a joke! And so many people have been played and fooled by the Joker himself -- Joseph Smith.
What about when historians like Dan Vogel say Joseph Smith was pious in his fraud and that the Nephites landed on the shores of South America, as opposed to Lehi's company of discovery that was wholly fictitious? Your map of Delmarva served to add a setting to this fiction.

Can fraud be pious? Can frauds be made more respectable with enough ginned-up parallels, especially if made by apologists who are against gin?
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bill4long
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Re: Mormonism Live

Post by bill4long »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2025 4:00 pm
Moksha wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2025 3:02 am
It is on the map you posted above.
I find it amazing how Smith’s secret geography was buried with him, deep in his mind and heart, and hidden away from everyone for all this time until now. The only way to figure it out was to think outside the testimony box and from the perspective of the whole thing being a hoax -- pure fiction. Even now days after revealing the con here on this board, people are still blinded by the game Smith played. Mormonism plays a number on the mind. It's a joke! And so many people have been played and fooled by the Joker himself -- Joseph Smith.
Talk to a "sovereign citizen" or "flat earther" sometime.
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Shulem
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Re: Geography

Post by Shulem »

Moksha wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2025 5:43 pm
What about when historians like Dan Vogel say Joseph Smith was pious in his fraud and that the Nephites landed on the shores of South America, as opposed to Lehi's company of discovery that was wholly fictitious? Your map of Delmarva served to add a setting to this fiction.
Smith’s ideas and theology evolved with the times to meet whatever needs he desired. In the end, his ideas were wide and long and covered a lot of ground -- hence North and South America and the entire hemisphere ultimately became the promised land. But it began at the southern end of a peninsula and everything else was just an expansion to the entire hemisphere becoming the promised land after the destruction of the Nephites. The distance between the southern tip of Delmarva (Lehi’s landing) and Cumorah in New York was the so-called limited geographical area in question and yet was an exceeding great distance for primitive peoples described in the story. If the story was truly historical then there would be archeological evidence to prove it and if that were the case, we wouldn’t be having this discussion today because apologists would have embraced Delmarva long ago and the Church would have all the proof it needs to make its case that the story is nonfiction.
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Cumorah

Post by Shulem »

A ♠

The Authority Card

An article published in the 1835 church periodical LATTER DAY SAINTS’ MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE headed by editors John Whitmer (one of the Eight Witnesses of the Book of Mormon) and Oliver Cowdery endorsed the claim that Cumorah in New York State was the actual physical location of Cumorah in the Book of Mormon as being one in the same and that ancient wars/battles took place at Cumorah. This article was again published in TIMES AND SEASONS in 1841 under the editorship of Don Carlos Smith, brother of the prophet and President of the High Priests Quorum in Nauvoo.

Therefore, we may conclude:

[x] Unanimous testimony of 8,835 members of the church in 1835 believed Cumorah wars occurred in New York
[x] Unanimous testimony of 19,856 members of the church in 1841 believed Cumorah wars occurred in New York
[x] Universal understanding of unbelievers was that Book of Mormon wars were said to have occurred in New York

Oliver Cowdery’s authority as a church spokesman:
  • Gift of Aaron (D&C 8) “by the Holy Ghost...spirit of revelation...you shall have knowledge...know the mysteries”

Note especially the colored highlights within the essay:

Oliver Cowdery, LATTER DAY SAINTS’ MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE., Kirtland, Ohio, July, 1835. wrote:I must now give you some description of the place where, and the manner in which these records were deposited.

You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N. Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of the road. Why I say large, is, because it is as large perhaps, as any in that country. To a person acquainted with this road, a description would be unnecessary, as it is the largest and rises the highest of any on that route. The north end rises quite sudden until it assumes a level with the more southerly extremity, and I think I may say an elevation higher than at the south a short distance, say half or three fourths of a mile. As you pass toward Canandaigua it lessens gradually until the surface assumes its common level, or is broken by other smaller hills or ridges, water courses and ravines. I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller as he passes by.

At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.

By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the Book of Mormon you will read Mormon's account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Camorah. In this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites-once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope, or doubt. A few had fled to the South, who were hunted down by the victorious party, and all who would not deny the Savior and his religion, were put to death. Mormon himself, according to the record of his son Moroni, was also slain.

But a long time previous to this national disaster it appears from his own account, he foresaw approaching destruction. In fact, if he perused the records of his fathers, which were in his possession, he could have learned that such would be the case. Alma, who lived before the coming of the Messiah, prophesies this. He however, by divine appointment, abridged from those records, in his own style and language, a short account of the more important and prominent items, from the days of Lehi to his own time, after which he deposited, as he says, on the 529th page, all the records in this same hill, Cumorah, and after gave his small record to his son Moroni, who, as appears from the same, finished, after witnessing the extinction of his people as a nation.

It was not the wicked who overcame the righteous; far from this: it was the wicked against the wicked, and by the wicked the wicked were punished.-The Nephites who were once enlightened, had fallen from a more elevated standing as to favor and privilege before the Lord, in consequence of the righteousness of their fathers, and now falling below, for such was actually the case, were suffered to be overcome, and the land was left to the possession of the red men, who were without intelligence, only in the affairs of their wars; and having no records, only preserving their history by tradition from father to son, lost the account of their true origin, and wandered from river to river, from hill to hill, from mountain to mountain, and from sea to sea, till the land was again peopled, in a measure, by a rude, wild, revengeful, warlike and barbarous race.-Such are our Indians.

This hill, by the Jaredites, was called Ramah: by it, or around it, pitched the famous army of Coriantumr their tents. Coriantumr was the last king of the Jaredites. The opposing army were to the west, and in this same valley, and near by, from day to day, did that mighty race spill their blood, in wrath, contending, as it were, brother against brother, and father, against son. In this same spot, in full view from the top of this same hill, one may gaze with astonishment upon the ground which was twice covered with the dead and dying of our fellowmen. Here may be seen where once sunk to nought the pride and strength of two mighty nations; and here may be contemplated, in solitude, while nothing but the faithful record of Mormon and Moroni is now extant to inform us of the fact, scenes of misery and distress-the aged, whose silver locks in other places and at other times would command reverence; the mother, who in other circumstances would be spared from violence; the infant, whose tender cries would be regarded and listened to with a feeling of compassion and tenderness; and the virgin, whose grace, beauty and modesty, would be esteemed and held inviolate by all good men and enlightened and civilized nations, alike disregarded and treated with scorn!-In vain did the hoary head and man of gray hairs ask for mercy; in vain did the mother plead for compassion; in vain did the helpless and harmless infant weep for very anguish, and in vain did the virgin seek to escape the ruthless hand of revengeful foes and demons in human form-all alike were trampled down by the feet of the strong, and crushed beneath the rage of battle and war! Alas, who can reflect upon the last struggles of great and populous nations, sinking to dust beneath the hand of justice and retribution, without weeping over the corruption of the human heart, and sighing for the hour when the clangor of arms shall no more be heard, nor the calamities of contending armies no more experienced for a thousand years? Alas, the calamity of war, the extinction of nations, the ruin of kingdoms, the fall of empires and the dissolution of governments! O the misery, distress and evil attendant on these! Who can contemplate like scenes without sorrowing, and who so destitute of commiseration as not to be pained that man has fallen so low, so far beneath the station in which he was created?

In this vale lie commingled, in one mass of ruin, the ashes of thousands, and in this vale was destined to consume the fair forms and vigerous systems of tens of thousands of the human race-blood mixed with blood, flesh with flesh, bones with bones, and dust with dust! When the vital spark which animated their clay had fled, each lifeless lump lay on one common level-cold and inanimate. Those bosoms which had burned with rage against each other for real or supposed injury, had now ceased to heave with malice; those arms which were, a few moments before nerved with strength, had alike become paralyzed, and those hearts which had been fired with revenge, had now ceased to heave with malice; those arms which were, a few moments before nerved with strength, had alike become paralyzed, and those hearts which had been fired with revenge, had now ceased to beat, and the head to think-in silence, in solitude, and in disgrace alike, they have long since turned to earth, to their mother dust, to await the august, and to millions, awful hour, when the Trump of the Son of God shall echo and re-echo from the skies, and they come forth, quickened and immortalized, to not only stand in each other's presence, but before the bar of him who is Eternal!

With sentiments of pure respect, I conclude by subscribing myself your brother in the gospel.

OLIVER COWDERY.
________________________________________________________________________________

Three months later, Cowdery officially recorded his 1833 blessing in the 1835 Church Patriarchal Blessing Book:
Joseph Smith wrote:Blessing to Oliver Cowdery, 2 October 1835
  • Blessed of the Lord is brother Oliver Cowdery for he shall be made like unto the bow which the Lord hath set in the heavens: he shall be a sign unto the nations, and shall be an instrument in lifting up an ensign unto them.
  • And blessed upon the mountains shall his feet be, for he shall publish peace and salvation among all the Gentile nations...
  • He shall sit in the council of the patriarchs, with his brother Joseph, and with him have part in the keys of that ministry when the Ancient of Days shall come.
  • He shall be equal in the councils of Israel, for he shall sit in the great assemblys of the house of Jacob, and by his understanding shall they be benefited.
  • He shall also stand in the councils of nations and states, and his voice shall be heard ​in the midst of​ the most renowned...

Several months later, another essay was published in the church periodical, this time by W.W. Phelps (Assistant President of Missouri) who testified that Cumorah was the actual location in which the Jaredites and the Nephites were destroyed in the flesh.

W.W. Phelp’s special authority/credibilty in the Church at that time:
  • Worked as editor and printer for the LATTER DAY SAINTS’ MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE
  • During the month of November when the article was published, Phelps took up residence in Joseph Smith’s home in Kirtland
  • Phelps served as scribe to Joseph Smith in assisting the prophet with the Book of Abraham translation

Note especially the colored highlights within the letter written by W.W. Phelps to Oliver Cowdery and published in the church periodical with Joseph Smith’s blessing and approval:

W. W. Phelps, Editor and Printer for LATTER DAY SAINTS’ MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE., Kirtland, Ohio, November, 1835. wrote:
...according as the Spirit of the Lord directs, so will I endeavor to answer.-I ask for wisdom...

...I want to drop an idea or two about Cumorah. Yes, Cumorah which must become as famous among the latter day saints, as Sinai was...

...the history of the first settlers of America; even the Book of Mormon...

...from Cumorah: Glorious spot!...

...Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America...

...Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth...

...There, too, fell the Nephites...

...The message of the angel of our worthy brother in the Lord, Joseph Smith, jr...


In 1830 a revelation (D&C 25) was given regarding sacred hymns that are said to be a “song of the heart” and a “prayer” unto God. Ten years later a sacred collection of hymns was published for the saints in Europe and later met with the prophet’s full approval that is agreeable to all the testimonials given about New York Cumorah being the last battlefield:

HYMN 271. L. M. wrote:A Collection of Sacred Hymns, for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in Europe. 1840
Selected by
Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, and John Taylor

Joseph Smith, Letter to Quorum of the Twelve, 1840 wrote:I have been favored by receiving a Hymn Book from you and as far as I have examined it I highly approve of it and think it to be a very valuable collection....I have no doubt but the spirit of the Lord has directed you.

<snip>

Ten thousand that were led by me
Lie round this hill called Cumorah;
Their spirits from their bodies fled,
And they are number’d with the dead.

Well might my father, in despair,
Cry, O ye fair ones, once how fair,
How is it that you’ve fallen? oh!
My soul is fill’d with pain for you.

My life is sought, where shall I flee?
Lord, take me home to dwell with thee,
Where all my sorrow will be o’er,
And I shall sigh and weep no more.

Thus sang the son of Mormon, when
He gazed upon his Nephite men,
And women too, which had been slain,
And left to moulder on the plain!


the end.

NOTE — Suffice it to say that (apostle) Brigham Young, (apostle) Parley P. Pratt, and (apostle) John Taylor under the direction of the prophet Joseph Smith were advocates for ONE CUMORAH (A♠) which was the final battlefield in which the wars in the Book of Mormon were fought and resulted in the destruction of the Jaredite and Nephite nations.

The Testimony of Joseph Smith and all of the apostles of original/early Mormonism makes it absolutely clear that the hill in New York was one in the same as the hill described in the Book of Mormon.

D&C 6:28 wrote:And now, behold, I give unto you, and also unto my servant Joseph, the keys of this gift, which shall bring to light this ministry; and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Hence, the word of the Lord concerning Cumorah was firmly established and understood by the entire Church as the last battlefield in which the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.

Amen.
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Shulem
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Re: Cumorah

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
Mon Feb 16, 2026 7:17 pm
A ♠

The Authority Card

Do the Math:

A = God
B = Joseph Smith the Prophet
X = Oliver Cowdery

A + B = X (“Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same” D&C 1:38)

Solve for X

A + B = Called of God + Holy Ghost + Spirit of Revelation + Know the Mysteries + Apostle + Second Elder + Gift of Aaron + Book of Mormon Witness + Assistant President

A + B = (Called of God + Holy Ghost) + Spirit of Revelation + Know the Mysteries + Apostle + Second Elder + Gift of Aaron + Book of Mormon Witness + Assistant President

A + B = A Sign unto the Nations + Spirit of Revelation + Know the Mysteries + Apostle + Second Elder + Gift of Aaron + Book of Mormon Witness + Assistant President

A + B = A Sign unto the Nations + (Spirit of Revelation + Know the Mysteries) + Apostle + Second Elder + Gift of Aaron + Book of Mormon Witness + Assistant President

A + B = A Sign unto the Nations + Lifting up an Ensign + Apostle + Second Elder + Gift of Aaron + Book of Mormon Witness + Assistant President

A + B = A Sign unto the Nations + Lifting up an Ensign + (Apostle + Second Elder) + Gift of Aaron + Book of Mormon Witness + Assistant President

A + B = A Sign unto the Nations + Lifting up an Ensign + He shall Publish + Gift of Aaron + Book of Mormon Witness + Assistant President

A + B = A Sign unto the Nations + Lifting up an Ensign + He shall Publish + (Gift of Aaron + Book of Mormon Witness) + Assistant President

A + B = A Sign unto the Nations + Lifting up an Ensign + He shall Publish + His Voice shall be Heard + Assistant President

A + B = A Sign unto the Nations + Lifting up an Ensign + He shall Publish + His Voice shall be Heard + Assistant President

A + B = A Sign unto the Nations + Lifting up an Ensign + He shall Publish + His Voice shall be Heard + With him have Part in the Keys & He shall be Equal in the Councils

IN CONCLUSION:

God worked through the prophet Joseph Smith as Oliver Cowdery, his spokesman, testified of the word: “Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same”

Thus, Joseph Smith by divine decree declared New York Cumorah was the last battlefield in which the Jaredites and Nephites perished!

Amen.
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Shulem
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Oliver Cowdery

Post by Shulem »

A ♠

The Authority Card

Folks,

Joseph Smith used his spokesman, Oliver Cowdery, to declare that Cumorah was the final battlefield and provide a testimonial and details of that account in the LATTER DAY SAINTS’ MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE. And guess what? Smith did the same thing months later to declare to the world that papyrus rolls purchased by the Church in Kirtland were that of Abraham and Joseph. Yes, Oliver Cowdery was tasked with the responsibility to make that announcement for the prophet and provide intricate details necessary for the Church to know what Smith was revealing. Smith used his scribe -- he used his spokesman to declare his message to the world! Just as Cowdery informed the world that New York Cumorah was the same hill in the Book of Mormon in which wars were fought, Cowdery also informed the world that papyrus rolls were in possession of the church and would soon be translated by the prophet Joseph Smith.

It’s really that simple.
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