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After reading the history myself I figured that perhaps I could find some solice and comfort by going to FARMS (an appendage of the church noted for it's wise and learned men trained for the ministry) for some viable explanation. I wanted my peace back.

What I found were a handfull of morons (yes morons) that prefered to define their own version of "is".

I was astonished that they would argue about whether one of Josephs "wives" were 14 or 16 years old, whether the number were 21 or 39, the mean average age, or how many were actually "sealed" to him posthumously. They would also attempt to attack and destroy the credibility of the messenger. This petty bantor only obscured the reality of what had taken place.

Here was the fact:

Joseph Smith broke the trust of his wife by committing adultery with another women. He did not tell her before or during the time he slept with this woman. When it became known to her that he had committed adultery he did not ask for her forgiveness or repent. He told her that this was her new reality and that she would have to live with it if she were to remain married to him. One woman? No, more than one. More than some. It got to the point when Emma did not even know which of her friends - even her closest - were doing her husband. There were instances where she was told what he did, what he was doing and occasionally what he was about to do. She even bought into it for a short time but ultimately rejected it in it's entirety. All of which legally was defined as adultery.

He betrayed me too (those that knew of the real Joseph also betrayed me). He (and even his closest allies were my heros. I would have died for the man and his friend that I thought they were. I thought he was a man of impeccable integrity. I was taught that he was beyond reproach.

I assumed he refused liquor at the age of 9 during a painful operation because that was the defining pattern of his life (didn't you?). He drank. So what? But we would never assume he did because of this story.

My relationship with my wife is sacred. Keeping secrets of immorality would be an act of betrayal of our sacred vows. I do not trust men that do such things to their wives - prophets, presidents, bosses or brothers. If they are willing to sink so low to destroy what is most sacred, what would they not be willing to do to me and those I love? Even the appearance of impropriety deserves an explanation for relationships to remain solid.

I respectfully suggest, Joseph Smith is but a very small player in the drama that will eventually play itself through fantasy, fiction and finally to fact and reality.

The course of humanity will then not beg hope, nor claim faith in unknowns. They will have learned through trial and error; experience and successes to eschew, or adapt experiments to a state of 'adeptness'. Thereby life's good-stuff will be the birth right of humanity... Look around, and it is evident that some are approaching "adeptness" in their own lives as we type/read...

What does any of this have to do with Joseph Smith, Polygamy, Mormonism, or Chrisianism--as we have it? And, of the future of humanity? EVERYTHING!!

Again, i respectfully suggest the established culture of Christianism we dysfunction in, is built upon false premises of Judaism! And Theism, as we understand the Universe and our place/purpose in it. Further, try to put what you 'know'--have been taught--about the above four subjects out of your mind. As best you can...

Go for a long walk, and enjoy every step, sight and sound you're privy to... Feel good about yourself, as you are; know yourself for who & what you are...

ALL THE WHILE, THINKING-THINKING-THINKING!!! ASKING WHY-WHY-WHY DO I BELIEVE AS I DO??? In all probability you'll come up with answers that will renew your Spirit connection to life to a greater sense of 'who-ness', and love, than possibly you've ever experienced...

Now we are into soul-freedom, as introduced by Jesus when he said, "...truth will make YOU free..." "...take my-means to lighten YOUR burden..." For which he gave his life...

Summary: Adam NEVER fell! Priest Crafts take their toll fraudulently--unless they are given for the entertainment/feel-good value received. Jesus taught truths that are yet to be tested. Man has been deceived to await a saviour. The Anti-Christ is most busy on Sunday in churches that pretend to know "God".

IT'S ALL WITHIN "YOU"!! SIMPLY 'COMPLETE' YOURSELF--WHEN "YOU" FEEL READY! READ, THINK, READ, THINK, READ, THINK...THEN DO WHATEVER "THE SPIRIT MOVES "YOU" TO DO!!" "...my 'grace' will always attend you!" Warm regards, Roger

Inconceivable wrote:After reading the history myself I figured that perhaps I could find some solice and comfort by going to FARMS (an appendage of the church noted for it's wise and learned men trained for the ministry) for some viable explanation. I wanted my peace back.

What I found were a handfull of morons (yes morons) that prefered to define their own version of "is".

I was astonished that they would argue about whether one of Josephs "wives" were 14 or 16 years old, whether the number were 21 or 39, the mean average age, or how many were actually "sealed" to him posthumously. They would also attempt to attack and destroy the credibility of the messenger. This petty bantor only obscured the reality of what had taken place.

Here was the fact:

Joseph Smith broke the trust of his wife by committing adultery with another women. He did not tell her before or during the time he slept with this woman. When it became known to her that he had committed adultery he did not ask for her forgiveness or repent. He told her that this was her new reality and that she would have to live with it if she were to remain married to him. One woman? No, more than one. More than some. It got to the point when Emma did not even know which of her friends - even her closest - were doing her husband. There were instances where she was told what he did, what he was doing and occasionally what he was about to do. She even bought into it for a short time but ultimately rejected it in it's entirety. All of which legally was defined as adultery.

He betrayed me too (those that knew of the real Joseph also betrayed me). He (and even his closest allies were my heros. I would have died for the man and his friend that I thought they were. I thought he was a man of impeccable integrity. I was taught that he was beyond reproach.

I assumed he refused liquor at the age of 9 during a painful operation because that was the defining pattern of his life (didn't you?). He drank. So what? But we would never assume he did because of this story.

My relationship with my wife is sacred. Keeping secrets of immorality would be an act of betrayal of our sacred vows. I do not trust men that do such things to their wives - prophets, presidents, bosses or brothers. If they are willing to sink so low to destroy what is most sacred, what would they not be willing to do to me and those I love? Even the appearance of impropriety deserves an explanation for relationships to remain solid.

All I can say to this is Amen!

Inconceivable wrote:
My relationship with my wife is sacred. Keeping secrets of immorality would be an act of betrayal of our sacred vows. I do not trust men that do such things to their wives - prophets, presidents, bosses or brothers. If they are willing to sink so low to destroy what is most sacred, what would they not be willing to do to me and those I love? Even the appearance of impropriety deserves an explanation for relationships to remain solid.

Why any woman would accept less than this for an eternal glory has always puzzled me. Women who settle for a polygamist have a much different standard of a righteous man than I do. Sexual morality in the marriage ranks at the top of my list for qualities in a spouse along with honesty and trust. None of which Joseph Smith exhibited. Yet women were falling all over themselves to be married and sealed to him, knowing that his wife was being deceived. It says a lot about their characters too, in my opinion.

I had a woman tell me that if her husband ever broke his temple covenants, she wanted to be sealed to Joseph Smith. ( I let her know that they don't do that anymore) So many women idolize him today, and I suspect many of the women that married him were deceived into plural marriage by the "rock star" idolizing.

by the way, Princess Bride is one of my favorite movies. You must be a romantic at heart. :)

By the way, thanks Liz and Seven. I think you're right too.


Gaz,

My posting is not an attempt to win an argument or humiliate. That being said, I'm sure I noted several things that were quite costic to a TBM as yourself (and as I once was only a few short years ago) and you're probably thinking I hijacked and killed your thread.

How is it that you can reconcile where the chips fell on this subject of Joseph Smith and his illegal immorality? It honestly crossed my mind today that perhaps I am just under some sort of evil spell to be seeing things in these terms (but then I pinch the history and confirm I'm not dreaming this stuff up).

What do you suppose makes us so different from each other in this respect? I mean, I was just like you about 22 months ago with that peaceful flowing style. I just didn't know then what you already do now.

?

Poligamy was practiced by Joseph Smith and some others before..

1) ..the revelation was committed to pen (1842 - a copy of it is recorded as D&C 132)
2) ..it was revealed to the church in it's "entirety" (1852 - General Conference report, Journal of Discourses)
3) ..it was was ratified by "common consent" (1852 - In English, this is a vote of confidence by the membership before a revelation or policy can be instituted)
4) ..some involved (like Emma and a few legally wedded husbands) even knew about it (and were deeply affected by it).
5) ..it was legal (it was never, ever legal)

Pinning down the word "some" is a non-issue. It meant more than one - whether it was 1% or 99%. Does that really matter?

Pinning down the word "before" is also a non-issue. Who cares whether it was 1831 or 1939? It does not make any of the 5 statements any less true. It is what it is.

Even if 1 or even 4 of the 5 can be rationalized to appear good rather than evil. 5 is what it is:

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law (maybe).
JOSEPH SMITH

(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:12)

is what it is:

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law (maybe).
JOSEPH SMITH

(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:12)

Only as long as the law doesn't interfere with what our leaders want to do.

Inconceivable wrote:By the way, thanks Liz and Seven. I think you're right too.


Gaz,

My posting is not an attempt to win an argument or humiliate. That being said, I'm sure I noted several things that were quite costic to a TBM as yourself (and as I once was only a few short years ago) and you're probably thinking I hijacked and killed your thread.

How is it that you can reconcile where the chips fell on this subject of Joseph Smith and his illegal immorality? It honestly crossed my mind today that perhaps I am just under some sort of evil spell to be seeing things in these terms (but then I pinch the history and confirm I'm not dreaming this stuff up).

What do you suppose makes us so different from each other in this respect? I mean, I was just like you about 22 months ago with that peaceful flowing style. I just didn't know then what you already do now.

?

I never thought you were hijacking the thread. Your speaking on the suject at hand, I have no problem with that.

What, in your opinion, will you spend your time doing if you do in fact reach the celestial kingdom? What will the society be like where all are perfect and know all things? How wil time be spent there? I say this in reference to my earlier posting.

Gaz

Gazelam wrote:I never thought you were hijacking the thread. Your speaking on the suject at hand, I have no problem with that.

What, in your opinion, will you spend your time doing if you do in fact reach the celestial kingdom? What will the society be like where all are perfect and know all things? How wil time be spent there? I say this in reference to my earlier posting.

Gaz

I honestly don't know, Gaz. Joseph Smith said a lot of things. I'm still in the process of sifting through the clay and iron.

What, in your opinion, will you spend your time doing if you do in fact reach the celestial kingdom? What will the society be like where all are perfect and know all things? How wil time be spent there? I say this in reference to my earlier posting.

Gaz

If the teachings are correct, we will be creating worlds, and raising eternal families. What I don't understand, Gaz, is why there would be a need for men to have more than one wife in the eternities. OK...so in the eternities, we are raising families and creating new worlds. Couldn't a husband and wife do this? Does a husband really need multiple wives to accomplish this? This is where my disconnect happens. Why is it necessary?

Marriage in the temple between one man and one woman is considered a celestial marriage.

The Church of today teaches marriage as a partnership. I seriously don't see how a partnership can exist when there is more than one wife involved. This is where not only the physical intimacy is cheapened, but the emotional intimacy goes out the window.

The title of the book, "In Sacred Lonliness" really struck a chord with me.

If I knew that my husband was having an emotionally intimate relationship with another woman, the only way I would be able to accept it would be to distance myself from him emotionally. There would be a part of me that was "dead"...."turned off".

That is how many of these women who did faithfully live the principle survived emotionally. Read some of the accounts.

I couldn't live like that. And I have a hard time conceptualizing a God who loves me insisting that I live like that, or even wanting me to.