Man is as intelligent as God

[_Franktalk]

Here is the problem with your magical worldview:

You have a problem I do not. When you take your last breath you will wake up in the spirit realm and realize what a waste your life was. You don't seem evil so you will be given more chances to develop your spiritual self. God is very patient.

[_moksha]

"The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself."

Even so, I shall continue to put on my pants one leg at a time. Besides, this principle has been recognized by this forum countless times. As proof, look at the title underneath my name at the left.

However, if I have the intelligence of God, what manner of superbeing does that make Blixa?

[_Franktalk]

However, if I have the intelligence of God, what manner of superbeing does that make Blixa?

I think it demonstrates that some are more super than others. I tend to think that the storehouse of knowledge is not limited to the brain but how well we tap into the collective consciousness.

[_DrW]

Here is the problem with your magical worldview:

You have a problem I do not. When you take your last breath you will wake up in the spirit realm and realize what a waste your life was. You don't seem evil so you will be given more chances to develop your spiritual self. God is very patient.

So, let me get this straight. Your life is meaningful because you spend your Sundays in Church, don't drink coffee, and give 10% of your income to a large real estate and media holding corporation masquerading as a Church, which, in turn, gives less than 4% of that amount to real charities. With your support, this Church violates state and federal laws by directly contributing money to political campaigns to deprive Americans of their civil rights, discriminates against women, changes its doctrine in response to public pressure, and lies about its sordid history.

My life is not meaningful because I no longer participate in, or support, the activities of this Church. Instead, for much of my professional life, including nine months of this last year, I have spent my Sundays working overseas, often to help improve the lives of folks in Central America or the Middle East by deploying technology. This year I lead a project to help approximately 30,000 people who live in a remote desert by helping design and stand up western technology to improve their environment and standard of living. Sundays (and the other days of the week) are often spent training local students and recent graduates to understand and work with modern tools and technology, as well as to better appreciate the primacy of facts over faith and action over wishful thinking.

My life is certainly less meaningful because I have often spend Sundays in this country working in the research lab, writing scientific papers, patents and books, or taken time off to go flying, or sailing, or play golf.

Certainly the fact that I drink coffee, now shown by any number of scientific studies to be protective against a number of diseases and to extend lifespan (this in a recently completed large prospective cohort study), does not bode well for my fate in your imaginary afterlife.

Here is the thing, Franktalk; when one bases their decisions in life on facts instead of fantasy, and realizes that they need to make the best use of the time they have on this Earth by not wasting 15% - 20% of it participating in ritualistic mumbo jumbo as prescribed by a 19th century con man and fraud, it is amazing how much more one can get done and how much happier one can be doing it.

After more than 20 years of activity in the Church, including marriage in the temple, I realized what a monumental waste of one's time, money and brain cells it represented. Return to activity in the LDS Church would be among my worst nightmares. For me it would be like Spirit Prison on Earth.

[_Franktalk]

So, let me get this straight. Your life is meaningful because you spend your Sundays in Church, don't drink coffee, and give 10% of your income to a large real estate and media holding corporation masquerading as a Church, which, in turn, gives less than 4% of that amount to real charities.....

I said a waste not meaningless. This realm we live in is but a stepping stone. There are realms far superior to this one. To go to those realms one must break the bonds of death that tie us to this realm. If you spend your life embracing this realm you are destined to return over and over. The flesh is bound to this realm. Your spirit will come back into yet another body of flesh. You can be a great person but if your desire is to stay on this level of existence God will not interfere. However when one age ends and another begins the physical universe will again be changed or reformed for that age. I sure don't know all of the details. But what I do know is that I wish to progress to the next realm. Just ignore everything in scripture but read the sections dealing with death and bondage. That may be a key for people who see religion as silly.

[_DrW]

So, let me get this straight. Your life is meaningful because you spend your Sundays in Church, don't drink coffee, and give 10% of your income to a large real estate and media holding corporation masquerading as a Church, which, in turn, gives less than 4% of that amount to real charities.....

I said a waste not meaningless. This realm we live in is but a stepping stone. There are realms far superior to this one. To go to those realms one must break the bonds of death that tie us to this realm. If you spend your life embracing this realm you are destined to return over and over. The flesh is bound to this realm. Your spirit will come back into yet another body of flesh. You can be a great person but if your desire is to stay on this level of existence God will not interfere. However when one age ends and another begins the physical universe will again be changed or reformed for that age. I sure don't know all of the details. But what I do know is that I wish to progress to the next realm. Just ignore everything in scripture but read the sections dealing with death and bondage. That may be a key for people who see religion as silly.

Franktalk,

You do realize, of course, that the fantasy you describe here involves exactly as much truth and validity as that ascribed to their favorite god (or gods or Galactic Lords) by any other religion that has ever existed, including Scientology.

[_grindael]

Mittens,

You should really cite where you got your quote from and provide a complete quote. What you have done below is pure deceit and is not what Joseph Smith was talking about.

The section is actually titled, "The Immortal Spirit" and Joseph Smith is discussing that our intelligences have always existed as has God. What you present is purely false and a complete misrespresentation of what was being discussed.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T6.html

The Immortal Spirit

Section Six 1843-44, p.351

I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man; but it is impossible for me to say much on this subject. I shall therefore just touch upon it, for time will not permit me to say all. It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead,--namely, the soul--the mind of man--the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don't believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. I will make a man appear a fool before I get through; if he does not believe it. I am going to tell of things more noble.

Section Six 1843-44, p.351

We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into you heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Refers to the old Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says "God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body."

Section Six 1843-44, p.353

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal8 with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth.

Section Six 1843-44, p.353

I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had not beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven.

Section Six 1843-44, p.354

I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man--on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man--the immortal part, because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

Section Six 1843-44, p.354

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

Actually, the above is a polished version of Smith's remarks, (known as the King Follett Sermon) and the original was a conglomeration of many sources, and therefore can probably be placed in the same category as Woodruff's Journal.... and Woodruff's journal was used in the amalgamation that Jonathan Grimshaw made in the 1850's that appeared in the Journal of Discourses and then in Teachings. . If you wish to read the original, you can do so here: http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/7Apr44-copy.html

Smith's concept is that all intelligence is co-equal. The only difference between Yahovah/Michael/Adam and man (according to Smith) is that Yahovah/Michael/Adam has more knowledge:

That God himself--find himself in the midst of spirit and glory because he was greater saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. (Clayton Report)

[_Franktalk]

Franktalk,

You do realize, of course, that the fantasy you describe here involves exactly as much truth and validity as that ascribed to their favorite god (or gods or Galactic Lords) by any other religion that has ever existed, including Scientology.

It is all guided by personal experience. It is obvious that nothing in your life has triggered you to pursue a spiritual walk. That is fine. One day it will happen and it will seem as if you were blind before that event. It may not even happen in this life. Then over time things will happen of a personal nature that will confirm you made the right choice. I do not make the rules but I can observe them. But you should lighten up on those who do seek a different walk than you do. One day you will be one of those who you now claim to be nuts. For most of my life I was as you are now so I know how hard it is to break the attachment to the world. But it can be done.

Many people take a partial step and seek God but embrace religion. This caused many problems. Those like yourself see the mess these people cause and reject the whole thing. Just try and see past that.

[_Tobin]

Smith's concept is that all intelligence is co-equal. The only difference between Yahovah/Michael/Adam and man (according to Smith) is that Yahovah/Michael/Adam has more knowledge:

That God himself--find himself in the midst of spirit and glory because he was greater saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. (Clayton Report)

Actually, you fail to fully grasp what Joseph Smith is saying as usual. I know it hasn't dawned on you, but you should really consider this: If God and man has always existed as intelligences, why is God more intelligent than we are? The answer is simple. God has a greater capacity. So, as I've pointed out in multiple posts already, you really don't understand what Joseph Smith is saying despite your assertions that you do. And the OP is a misrepresentation due to similar failure to understand what was being said here as well.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Franktalk,

You do realize, of course, that the fantasy you describe here involves exactly as much truth and validity as that ascribed to their favorite god (or gods or Galactic Lords) by any other religion that has ever existed, including Scientology.

It is all guided by personal experience. It is obvious that nothing in your life has triggered you to pursue a spiritual walk. That is fine. One day it will happen and it will seem as if you were blind before that event. It may not even happen in this life. Then over time things will happen of a personal nature that will confirm you made the right choice. I do not make the rules but I can observe them. But you should lighten up on those who do seek a different walk than you do. One day you will be one of those who you now claim to be nuts. For most of my life I was as you are now so I know how hard it is to break the attachment to the world. But it can be done.

Many people take a partial step and seek God but embrace religion. This caused many problems. Those like yourself see the mess these people cause and reject the whole thing. Just try and see past that.

Do you reject the truths claims of Mormonism?

- Doc